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| == MediaWiki, scope, etc. == | | ==Subpages== |
| | *[[Talk:Etenne/subpage1]] |
| | *[[Talk:Etenne/subpage2]] |
| | *[[BoyWiki:Etenne's Palaestra]] |
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| Hey Etenne,
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| Thanks for setting up the account. I notice BoyWiki uses a fairly old version of MediaWiki, 1.13. There's a new version coming out, [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.23 1.23], that's pretty good: "With 1.23, MediaWiki starts to behave more like a modern website as regards notifications, to keep the editors of your wiki engaged and always up to date about what interests them. This used to require several custom settings." I can help you guys with configuration if you want the help, as I've owned and operated numerous wikis, contributed core patches, and developed extensions. If you would like any custom extensions developed, please let me know.
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| Also, I was wondering how broad the scope of the wiki can be. As the Newgon article [https://www.newgon.com/wiki/Nature_of_the_problem nature of the problem] points out, "Youth rights and participation must be an integral part of our eventual activism (without a broader movement to fall back on, we are doomed)". How far into the topic of youth rights in general can we venture without being off-topic for this wiki?
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| [[Public Activism (Options for Closeted BoyLovers)]] notes, "But if you want to legalize child sex, it's inevitable that you will have to argue youth rights. All ageist laws are based on an understanding that youth are incapable, untermenschen in wait to become full human. For instance, advocates against ADHD drugs have to make the argument that children have self-ownership. The argument logically ends by also having self-ownership for sex."
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| Not only does it make it easier to argue for sexual freedom when other youth rights have been granted, but it also makes relationships with young friends more convenient when they have more rights. For example, if young people are allowed to drive around, then it's easier to get together with them; if they are allowed to hold jobs, then it can make money less of a problem in the relationship; and so on.
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| Also, what about girls? Is there growing recognition that the girllover and boylover communities should work together? Or is the topic of girllove best reserved for Newgon, ChildWiki, etc.? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get hold of the people in charge of Newgon to request an account; if you are able to help me with that, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 23:44, 25 March 2014 (GMT)
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| @Leucosticte
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| Yes, we are going to upgrade any day now. During that time, BoyWiki will be offline for about 4 days.
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| As to the topic of Girllove.... I agree that is not appropriate for BoyWiki as we are more specialized. However, I think we can make some exceptions where our mutual concerns overlap.
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| I don't know anyone from Newgon or I would have been happy to help.
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 00:07, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :If you want to be able to import the latest templates from Wikipedia, then [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Scribunto Scribunto] will also be useful. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 15:12, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| I will look into it. Right now, I am focused on getting the current bugs worked out and making sure it is secure. I did a test user block this morning which worked fine (our tech person seems to know what he is doing:) I was worried that some of the "tinkering" that was done may have messed it up but no, I can still ban the bad guys:)
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 15:35, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :On Mises Wiki, we upgraded a year or two ago to an apparently broken version of MediaWiki that didn't allow blocks or page protections. For several months, those features were out of order but no major harm was caused because apparently nobody cared enough about the wiki to vandalize it, or they didn't realize it was vulnerable. As for the spammers, they tended not to use the same account or IP more than once anyway. BoyWiki of course will always be a potential target of haters, at least until a more enlightened or laid back future arrives. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 15:54, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| '''Etenne's rant for the day'''
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| I have had quite a morning already.... I woke up to no power and no heat! I need more coffee!
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| Like I said, the new wiki is coming:) But you have to understand that everything here is done by volunteers and people get things done at their own pace... sometimes right away and sometimes a week or two latter. Therefore, progress is slow. We are mostly done...just some things need to be tweaked. The last mile does seem to be the longest:(
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 16:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :We've been out of coffee over here for more than a week, so that I've had to resort to decaf tea just for the sake of having some warm beverage. But yeah, waking up without power or heat pretty much takes the cake, as far as unpleasant inconveniences go.
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| :Anyway, I wasn't trying to rush you or anything. I actually think this wiki is pretty good, tech-wise; site performance is pretty good and you've got a pretty lightweight (i.e. non-bloated) configuration set up, it looks like. I also think it has some advantages, administration-wise, compared to, say, Conservapedia or RationalWiki. At least BoyWiki doesn't lock people out at night and ban them for questionable reasons. It also has advantages over Wikipedia, as you pointed out in [http://www.boychat.org/messages/1371168.htm your BoyChat post]. It's really a breath of fresh air to be able to participate in a wiki that's friendly to child/youth sexual liberation and has more users than just me.
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| :With reference to BoyWiki being "the voice of a single person", I admire that you had the passion and tenacity to stay the course when it was, perhaps, kinda lonely here. I have been in that situation many times. The first time it happened was on Libertapedia, in April 2009. All the other active users (about three people) got disgruntled and left, so that it was just me running the place. Perhaps I gave up on that project too easily, and let the wiki go to ruin when I could have found a way to put it on autopilot instead. It seems that if you stay the course long enough, other users will often eventually show up.
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| :A friend of mine who runs a wiki hosting company writes, "In a wiki environment building and working with a community is probably the hardest part. I have worked on several wiki projects and building as well as working with the community was the most challenging part. It is frustrating if the community does not build up and on the other hand it is very frustrating to deal with the community since it tends to develop a life of its own. It is really hard work to have a healthy community. If you don't have this morale is likely to sink the more time passes." [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 16:29, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| Thanks for the compliments.
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| To be frank, I have never had a problem with my own morale because I have always held the position that so long as BoyWiki is a little better every day (whether it had users or not) I was fine with that. BoyWiki doesn't have to be a better wiki than anyone else.... It simply has to be better then it was yesterday:)
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| @Etenne:
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| It is easy to make a small, temporary alcohol stove for making "emergency" coffee. A empty tuna-fish can , with two table-knives across the top of it (careful - use old knives as they may discolor from the heat OR use tin foil scrunched into thin cylinders) and then with a little alcohol (takes experience to know how much - maybe 4 or 5 tablespoons of alcohol) poured into the can, and then a very small pan (one that holds less than two or three cups of water - but only put half a cup or so of water into the pan) then set on top of the knives (or foil cylinders), then the whole thing placed in the bathroom sink (for safety if the thing spills burning alcohol), then set the alcohol in the tuna can on fire, cover the pan, let the water heat (does not have to boil) then use the water to make coffee either by putting coffee grounds into the water, leaving for several minutes, and then straining through a strainer (you can even just let the coffee grounds settle for a few minutes if you do not have a strainer, then pour into a cup), or by putting so-called "instant coffee powder" (yech! that is ''not'' "coffee"!) in it and then - voila! - hot coffee!
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| I have done the above ''many'' times. :- )
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| Oh, where do we put ''bug reports'' or suggestions about things needing improving?
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| For example, the following URL:
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| en.test.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel
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| ... needs a redirect to:
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| en.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel
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| ... because Google has cached many articles from the "test" URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads.
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| Also, there are some "advisories" which should be included in the "Search" page, to help users search better.
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| '''@Leucosticte'''
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| AND
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| '''@ Etenne'''
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| I think part of the problem for BoyWiki is to make user contributions easier by breaking requests for content into "little chunks" which users can provide easily, for example by responding to posts on BoyChat.
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| If a question were posed on BoyChat, for example:
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| <blockquote>BoyChat post:
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| "Anybody know who did blah-blah-blah/when blah-blah-blah happened." "Yeah, it was so-and-so/it happened at such-and-such time." "Can I add that to BoyWiki?" "Sure." "Oh, if you have any more info, you are welcome to edit the article on blah-blah-blah which mentions blah-blah-blah." "OK - I will do that...</blockquote>
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| Then give that poster a "nick" to edit BoyWiki.
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| This could slyly "rope in" an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor.
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| What do you think?
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 18:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| re test wiki
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| That should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think).
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| Yes, a redirect would have been a good idea but somethings are beyond my control. You have to understand that the bureaucracy to get anything done around here is extremely difficult to navigate. Like I said, when the new wiki come online.... I will see what I can do. That unfortunately is the best answer I can give. There is no fixing what we have got.... We are simply happy with what we are given:)
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 19:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| @Anyone
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| I need a mediawik link for the sandbox thing. I can't find an extension with exactly that name. Can you give a link to
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| mediawiki.org?
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 21:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :<em>"(The Google cache problem) should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think). "</em>
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| Uh, no. I am almost certain that it will not "clear in time". Even years from now. Really. I have a brown-belt in "Google-fu" so I think I should know.
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| OK - that was <em>1</em> of my 4 points.
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| 1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?
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| 2)Oh, where do we put ''bug reports'' or suggestions about things needing improving?
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| 3) Redirects: you answered that.
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| 4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.
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| <small>(User4 sits impatiently, while tapping his fingers on his desk, waiting...)<big>
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| https://git.wikimedia.org/
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| OR MAYBE
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| https://wikimedia.org/
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 21:18, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| ---
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| ''1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?''
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| *yes but the power is back on now and I am far to lazy to do that when there is a store across the street.
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| 2)''Oh, where do we put ''bug reports'' or suggestions about things needing improving?''
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| *You could always email Bron but I doubt his response would be any different then mine. Fix what you are able to fix yourself and the rest we may just have to learn to live with. I don't have a better answer. I have enough trouble getting anyone to do what '''HAS''' to be done.... geting people too do what should be done is next to impossible.
| | ==To all users== |
| | It would be a good idea to review this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view |
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| 3) ''Redirects: you answered that.''
| | In short, the neutrality of point of view leads to an objective, "scientific" discourse, whereas non-neutrality leads to one-sided views and propaganda. |
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| 4) ''Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.''
| | An important point is perhaps to understand that specific sympathies are not incompatible with a neutral point of view: you can like a country, a person, an amorous preference, and nevertheless be able of an objective discourse about it. |
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| *I have tried that to some extent with not much success.
| | Only objectivity is credible. That's why it is vital for BoyWiki. We don't "promote", we explain and illustrate. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 12:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC) |
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| I am still not finding how to set up this sandbox thing... is it done with an extension or a series of templates?
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| :"where do we put ''bug reports'' or suggestions about things needing improving?" Ideally, [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:IssueTracker IssueTracker] or Bugzilla; in its absence, I guess [[Project:Bug reports]]? Then, as Etenne notes, you can bring the whole page to Bron's (or whoever's) attention, and they can either do the stuff or ignore it. But at least you wrote it down somewhere before you forgot about it. Also, if you post it on-wiki, we might be able to collaborate to figure out what exactly to ask tech support to do (e.g. what config settings we need changed).
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| :"Google has cached many articles from the 'test' URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads." The solution is to use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Robots.txt robots.txt] to keep Google from caching anything from the test wiki.
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| :"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"
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| :The only two sandbox extensions I know about are [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ApiSandbox these] [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TemplateSandbox two]. Neither is needed in order to create and use a sandbox page. Is there some extra functionality you're looking for that we don't have now? I may have completely misunderstood what was being asked...
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| :The coffee idea sounds complicated, but addictions can drive people to considerable lengths. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 22:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| Do not know if this is useful:
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| Google:
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| sandbox site:mediawiki.org
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| Here is the URL to click on:
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| https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=sandbox+site%3Amediawiki.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1
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| From the results, maybe this:
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| https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Wikipedia/sandbox
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 22:14, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| RE:
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| :"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"
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| How about just inviting people on BC to submit info on various topics in their posts, with the understanding that the info will be included in BoyWiki?
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 22:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| == What to do about Newgon Wiki ==
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| I propose that we do one of two things.
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| #add a new interwiki prefix, I guess newgonwiki:, for Newgon Wiki. Then when we link to it, we can use either that prefix or a template, e.g. Template:NewgonWiki. If Newgon Wiki ever gets taken down, we can just change that interwiki prefix to lead to either the Internet Archive URL or the successor wiki. Otherwise, all those links will break in such a scenario. --or--
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| #import everything Newgon Wiki has that we think is useful. They won't be changing any of it anymore, so if it's going to be improved, it's up to people like us.
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| [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 22:21, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| OIC, it is disabled. I was told that their host was having problems contacting the owner of that site.
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 22:40, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| | '''Please ask yourself before hitting the post button''' |
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| @Leucosticte
| | # '''Dose this have a cultural or historical [[BoyWiki:Relevance policy|relavance to boylove]]?''' |
| Can you explain to me how to set up a sandbox?.... I have never used it and I don't really know anything about it.
| | # '''By posting this are you going to make Etenne lose sleep?''' |
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 22:23, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :Isn't it just a page like [[Project:Sandbox]], or [[User:Etenne/Sandbox]], where people play around with wikitext without creating a bunch of pages that will have to be deleted? Is there something more that you're trying to do? [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 22:31, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| @Leucosticte
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| Seems to me that almost <em>everything</em> on Newgon wiki is relevant.
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| No?
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 22:39, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
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| Here is something on allowing/disallowing HTML tags on wikis.
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| https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FHTMLTags/3c2c104f877d1216dbd8a47dcce18cf4efe83954/README
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| You may already know all about that, but still it may be good to just scan it.
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| Oh, is breaking your talk page into sections such a good idea? This comment is <em>not</em> relevant to this section heading. Should I create a new one?
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| And from the watchlist, how would one know what has been added - and to which section - without all the hassle of looking up the history?
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 00:24, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
| | == To all BoyWiki users:Naming == |
| :"Seems to me that almost <em>everything</em> on Newgon wiki is relevant." So what do you want to do? Mass import? I created a [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Leucosticte/Doing_the_Newgon_stuff little guide to doing that]. It should only need to be done one time, since no further updates will be made to Newgon. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 01:07, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| | The convention for naming pages is that articles should be singular whereas categories should be plural. |
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| :"Seems to me that almost <em>everything</em>... | | *Names of topics and topic categories should be singular, normally corresponding to the name of a BoyWiki. article. Examples: "Law" (which represents a body of knowledge), "France", "George W. Bush". |
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| Importing wholesale is a question for Etenne. But then all the internal links become a problem, don't they? If the page linked to does not exist on BoyWiki then users may be frustrated to discover the empty pages, no?
| | *Names of set categories should be plural. Examples: "Writers", "Villages in Poland". |
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
| | However, I am willing to hear counter arguments to this practice or suggestions before deciding what the policy should be --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 13:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC) |
| ::If you import wholesale, then the linked pages will exist because you're importing everything, including the pages they linked to. Unless of course the linked pages didn't exist on Newgon Wiki either, or they linked to namespaces that we wouldn't be importing. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 01:56, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| == Deletion of this page ==
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| Are you planning to delete this page periodically? I think it would be better to archive it. That way people can see the history of what was already asked and answered, etc. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 01:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| RE: Deletion of the page.
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| I agree. All pages should be archived. Often I need to look something up that I have mentioned somewhere, and I may remember where I mentioned it and then go back - but if the information has "disappeared" I become very frustrated. :- (
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| [[User:User4|User4]] 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| | :Just yesterday I noticed that Wikipedia has categories with a singular title, e.g. [[wikipedia:Category:Vagina]]. Also, there are some plural article titles, e.g.[[wikipedia:Jews]]. [[User:Lysander|Lysander]] ([[User talk:Lysander|talk]]) 15:13, 25 March 2015 (UTC) |
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| | ::You can't figure out what those two (obvious, at least, to me) errors are due to? Uh... You certainly make up in glibness what you lack in perspicacity. [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 02:37, 26 March 2015 (UTC) |
| | :::Enlighten me. [[User:Lysander|Lysander]] ([[User talk:Lysander|talk]]) 03:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC) |
| | ::::Hey! You didn't enlighten me about what those two errors are due to. [[User:Lysander|Lysander]] ([[User talk:Lysander|talk]]) 04:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC) |
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| Unless the page is deleted, all you need to do is look at the page history to find something that has been removed. Even if a page is deleted, all you need to do is ask me and I can restore it.
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 01:52, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :Oh, can you restore [http://en.boywiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page=Talk%3AEtenne&year=&month=-1 the one from earlier]? Thanks. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 01:54, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| you mean what blanked today of the conversation between me and User4 about making pizza?--[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] 02:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| :No, this was a deletion of 28 February. I don't know if there was anything important in there, since I can't read it; I just thought it would be good as a general principle to save it for posterity, unless it's something bad that has to be suppressed. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] 03:12, 27 March 2014 (GMT)
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| "save it for posterity"
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| I doubt anyone anywhere really wants to know anything I say.... most of the time things on this page are just chitchat.
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 16:49, 28 March 2014 (CET)
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| == HTTPS error ==
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| 1) Previously, I installed all the certs for BoyWiki from the FS page (as you instructed).
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| Since the "software update" I get an error when I first log on (I think only then) about certs not being authorized.
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| On ''other'' pages (like this edit now) I am using HTTPS without any problem, and without an "error".
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| I am "the paranoid type" and am always very suspicious of changes to my browser behavior that I don't expect, ''especially'' as it relates to boy-sensitive sites.
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| Also, I would like to know what the "keep me logged in" selection on the log-in page does. Is it a cookie? I notice now that I am automatically logged out very quickly (I have '''not''' chosen to "keep me logged in". Previously, it seemed the auto log-out took place after maybe 6 or 8 hours. Now it is much much shorter.
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| 2) Please advise me of any new templates which have been installed which affect editing. I need to know what to include/not include in the Editing Guide.
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| 3) Thanks for your complete response to my mail message.
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| 4)If "R" is one of the tech guys, I know ''exactly'' what you mean... Almost impossible to work with him... :- (
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| 5) Oh, and ''welcome back''! ;- )
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 10:35, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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| 1. The old self signed certs are no longer needed. We have a new valid cert for all of Boywiki
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| 2. no new templates have been added but some things that did not work before should now work.
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 12:03, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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| Question: Do old bookmarks need to be changed? Seems the URL is slightly different now...
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| Ah - but exactly WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? Uh, to try EVERY possible combination of ''every'' option to discover those things would be a bit time consuming, don't you agree? P~
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 13:26, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :Yeah, the URL scheme was changed from en.boywiki.org/wiki/$1 to www.boywiki.org/en/$1 . There are [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Other_how-to_mini-guides allegedly] some advantages to the former scheme, but whatever. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 13:40, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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| @Leucosticte: Thanks. I'll check that out.
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| :Aside: You know, if ''I'' were responsible for a web site, and I ''changed the URL'', I would be '''''certain''''' to inform the users of the site of that fact. But maybe I'm just crazy, right? Apparently, the ones who are responsible for BW do not feel the same way. Strange, no? <small> snark snark snark... <big>
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| @Etenne:
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| Is "User4" a category? Can I create pages which are listed in the "User4" category? If not, why not?
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| And wouldn't it be a good idea if it were possible?
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| I tried with the "Filip" page but it did not work.
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 13:54, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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| The answer to all the questions (for right now is)
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| 1. I am so tired I can't see straight
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| 2. I am still working on other things right now and am feeling overwhelmed.
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| 3. I can't do everything:)
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 14:05, 1 April 2014 (CEST)
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| <BLOCKQUOTE>I hope you are feeling better. When you get the chance, maybe you could address some of the questions above? Thanks. [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 11:27, 3 April 2014 (CEST) </BLOCKQUOTE>
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| ---- | | ---- |
| To answer some of the questions:
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| 1.Do old bookmarks need to be changed? yes, they do.
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| 2. WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? That is a very complicated question but in a nutshell, this is a newer version of wiki... in the old version some of the newer templates would not work etc... I am not sure myself of all the differences but if you really want to know you will have to do a web search about what are the differences between wiki versions as well as between the monobook skin and the Vector skin.
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| You added [[:Category:User4]] but no, you didn't go to that page to hit save to create it as a new category. As for the rest, I am not sure what you are asking?
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 12:28, 3 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :It might be possible to set up a [[wikipedia:Rewrite engine|rewrite rule]] in [[mediawikiwiki:Manual:Short_URL/Apache#Where_to_put_.htaccess|.htaccess]] to redirect links from the old scheme to the new scheme. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:22, 3 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :: Right now, what I am working on is getting the Agora reset up and the vector css working as it should:) Along with all the other work that I have to do..... you how it feels when you move in to a new house? Well, there you go... that is what it is like. I have so many boxes to unpack that I don't know where to start:)
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 22:33, 3 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ==The navigation pane==
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|
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| ... does not have a link to the encyclopedia. Is there a (good) reason for this? Just wondering...
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 12:37, 5 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ==Making sense of BoyWiki==
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|
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| "Common sense" is something that is "intuitive". BoyWiki should "be intuitive" (make sense) to users. At this point, it really doesn't. This discourages readers as well as contributors.
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| I am trying to find a way - within the limitations of the wiki format - to make things "make sense" to the readers and the contributors. Most people don't have the time/inclination/skills to comb through BW to find the good materials it contains. That is one reason why BW is criticized so fiercely by some.
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| BW just "doesn't make sense" to the average person. Wiki software was designed by <i>computer programmers</i>, and <i>NOT</i> by educators. This is also often a serious problem in the field of education - the ones creating the computer programs which <i>make the information accessible</i> don't think like "normal folk" and so they often design software which is basically unusable to regular people.
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| I am (along with working on a large number of other, unrelated-to-BW things) working on this problem here.
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| <i>I <b>will</b> find a way to make BW user-friendly!</i> But I may stumble along the way.
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| My bad...
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 13:18, 5 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :The main way people find wiki content is through Google or from links from other websites, social media, etc. Unfortunately, most people are probably not going to link from their websites or social media to BoyWiki, which in turn probably hurts our pagerank. But we can still create some useful portals (perhaps the entry point can be listed on the [[mediawikiwiki:Manual:Interface/Sidebar|sidebar]] and/or the main page) and such to make the content more accessible to people who find their way here and start browsing.
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| :Categorization, wikilinks, etc. too are very important in helping people find useful content, so it's good to do the usual work of looking for [[Special:LonelyPages|orphan articles]] and [[Special:DeadendPages|dead-end pages]] and creating links to/from them where appropriate; looking for [[Special:UncategorizedPages|uncategorized pages]] and adding them to categories; etc. Actually it looks like I'm the main one who's been adding uncategorized pages lately, but I'm not really all that familiar with the categorization scheme here yet. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:21, 5 April 2014 (CEST)
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| <blockquote>For example, people see, "Information about blah blah blah is here [click the link].
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| So they click, only to be given ''another'' set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from. They click on one (somewhat randomly), and then are given YET ANOTHER set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from! At this point they say, "Fuck you, your wiki, and the ass you rode in on!" and leave.
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| People want to click a link to something, and find what they are looking for on the page which loads next. NOT another "menu" of links to click. Do you know what I mean?
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| <blockquote><poem>
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| Welcome to "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
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| We give useful information about the alphabet.
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| (Click here to continue)
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| *CLICK*
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| (Which alphabet of the following?)
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| *CLICKS ENGLISH*
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| (Which letter? Choose from the following:)
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| *CLICKS LETTER "A"*
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| - The letter "A" is the first letter of the alphabet. It looks like inverted ox-horns.
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| Thank you for visiting "What is "Letter A" on "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
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| (Click here to return to the home page.)
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| *SCREAMS, TEARS AT HAIR, AND TURNS OFF COMPUTER*</poem></blockquote>
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| It's nice to have things organized in "directories" and "sub-directories", but if all the information can fit onto ''one'' page, and then scrolling down will locate it, ''THAT'' is the most efficient way to present the information. IMHO.
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| When you click a link, you should find useful information. NOT another series of menus, if at all avoidable (and it often IS avoidable).
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| No muss, no fuss. Just the information "at your fingertips". NOT information "readily accessible" after "only 5- or ten-more-clicks". Only to find that it was ''not'' the info you were actually looking for!
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 19:12, 5 April 2014 (CEST)
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| </blockquote>
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| ==Categories==
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| Category:Index is the root category. Encyclopedia, Entertainment, and life are it's main subcategories.
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| Activism, Boys,Chronology and Births are new categories which I am trying to build. All the rest are administrative categories. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 00:24, 6 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ::The (article) "data" exists only as individual entries within a database. To ''make sense'' of the database data, categories must be created '''by the users''' when editing/creating articles. The user-created categories create relationships between the different bits of information within the database, and thereby create "useful information" out of the "raw data" within the database.
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| ::The skill of the user determines whether the categories created/assigned to articles then are "useful" and "make sense" to the readers of BW. A hierarchical system of categories allows the data to be accessed in many different ways, creating different "relationships" according to how the data relate to each other.
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| ::Sometimes a reader may wish to see all entries about "people". Articles about people should include "category:people". Other readers may wish to see articles about people who are researchers - so "category:researchers". Or they may want authors - "category:authors". Or famous pedophiles - "category:famous_pedophiles".
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| ::The one creating categories must ''anticipate'' the kinds of information the reader may wish to access. He must "read the mind - ''in advance'' - of the reader". Too many categories is less of a problem than too few - categories may exist but be ignored by not being linked to.
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| ::A "central index" of existing categories '''''IS ESSENCIAL''''' to guide editors when including/creating new categories for articles.
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| ::Then the overseers of the wiki must ensure that links highlighting categories are included in "meta" articles which can be used to familiarize the readers with what is available for reading.
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| ::Or So It Seems To Me (and many ''others'' involved in "making sense" [creating useful information] out of database data.)
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| ::Remember - not all "opinions" are ''informed'' opinions. One must learn to distinguish those whose opinions are ''informed'' from those whose are not, and give them more weight.
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| ::IMHO.
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| ::[[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 19:18, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :If I understand you correctly, then I disagree. Categories start out generalized and become more specialized as they grow. For example, Films to subcategory films with boys ages 7 to 9, films with boys 9 to 12 and so forth. Or films to subcategory films in English, films in French etc... however you have to have enough to warrant a subcategory. Also, it sort of depends what it is too. Categories that are too specific are not useful either.. ie, Chickens named Dave who crossed the road. IMHO
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| ::Also, there is a "central index" of existing categories '' See: [[Special:Categories]]
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| --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 21:37, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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| <blockquote>Oh, boy. I've ''tried'' explaining. It ''did not work.''
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| Read the Dummies book, then go to newgon.com/wiki and look at the way "Categories" are used in their articles. And ''see'' how things fit together so well - you can find pages which are related to each other ''so'' easily.
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| <small>Why, oh why do I waste my time?</small>
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| Take a look at the article on Warren_Farrell
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| Here are the categories that it is in:
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| <nowiki>[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Fence-Sitting Activists]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]]</nowiki>
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| Or the one on Wikisposure:
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| <nowiki>[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:Child Pornography]][[Category:Cyber Activism]][[Category:Anti-Pedophile culture]][[Category:Websites]][[Category:Websites: AntiPed]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: American]][[Category:History & Events: Real Crime]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: American]]</nowiki>
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| Or would you say that the articles are "not in the correct category" because they are not simply in the ''one'' category <nowiki>[[Work in progress]]</nowiki>?
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| :'''"But they are not ''finished'' yet!"'''
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| '''''SHEESH!'''''
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 17:10, 10 April 2014 (CEST)</blockquote>
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| ==Agora - working or not?==
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| Either Agora is not working correctly, or Agora is not working correctly.
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| I don't know which.
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| https://www.boywiki.org/en/Special:PrefixIndex/BoyWiki:Agora
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| ... shows that I made a post today. That post does NOT show up when I access Agora "normally". Or am I doing something wrong?
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| You see that I tried ''twice'' - that explains the "double entry".
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 18:51, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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|
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| ==Importing Help pages and other pages==
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| Couldn't this be done some other way than me spending hours to import them one-page-at-a-time? There ''must'' be a better use of my time, don't you think?
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| The truth is, there are ''lots'' of things I should be doing now. Here, as well as and on other sites. I'd like to use my time effectively.
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| My bad...
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 22:55, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :No... and it's not just the importing them (which is the easy part)... it's also the editing them to fit our specific needs (which is the hard part). One page at a time..... it helps to keep in mind that, '''Rome was not built in a day'''.... that's what keeps me sort of sane. Wiki is build by adding just a little more each day --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 23:15, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ::While I agree with you, I still know that folks come to BW and if they are disappointed, they are reluctant to come back. This means ''readers'' '''as well as''' ''editors''.
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| ::If you invite folks here now, and they aren't happy, then you have "blown your wad" and that is that.
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| ::And STILL if you imported them all, and put them somewhere, that '''WOULD SAVE ME A LOT OF TIME COPYING THEM ONE-BY-ONE''' and the end result would '''be the same''' - they would be here to be worked on. Or am I missing something?
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| ::While I agree with you, I still know that folks come to BW and if they are disappointed, they are reluctant to come back. This means ''readers'' '''as well as''' ''editors''.
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| ::If you invite folks here now, and they aren't happy, then you have "blown your wad" and that is that.
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| ::And STILL if you imported them all, and put them somewhere, that '''WOULD SAVE ME A LOT OF TIME COPYING THEM ONE-BY-ONE''' and the end result would '''be the same''' - they would be here to be worked on. Or am I missing something?
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| ::We are now working on the '''''meta''''' stuff. '''This is the stuff necessary before the wiki ''can even be built one-page-at-a-time!''''' Don't you see that? A really useful editing guide will ''help to keep editors here, editing''. Without that, editors become frustrated and leave!
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 23:50, 8 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :::If I understand what you are asking when you say importing, I don't know how to do that or from where. When you say that "they would be here to be worked on" By who? --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 00:13, 9 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ::::<BLOCKQUOTE>...it's not just the importing them <strong>(which is the easy part)</strong></BLOCKQUOTE>
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| ::::<BLOCKQUOTE><strong>I don't know how to do that or from where.</strong></BLOCKQUOTE>
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| ::::Uh, then that is NOT so easy, after all. That's OK.
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| ::::<BLOCKQUOTE>"they would be here to be worked on"</BLOCKQUOTE>
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| ::::First, the data. Then the processing.
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| ::::<BLOCKQUOTE>By who?</BLOCKQUOTE>
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| ::::A wiki is a collaborative project, consisting of volunteers who maintain and improve the content of the wiki. They may come from all walks of life, rich or poor, happy or sad, intelligent or unintelligent, enthusiastic or unenthusiastic. They apply for "editing rights" which, once granted, allow them to participate as creators and maintainers of content. Some may be more active than others, but each can make a contribution. BW currently has a few editors, and one or more of them could participate in the "processing" of the data and therefore convert the "data" into useful information. In future, there may be others who will apply to be editors, be granted editing privileges, and continue to improve the current articles on BW or create new articles.
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| ::::''THAT'S'' who will utilize the imported help pages.
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| :::: I'm a bit surprised that you seem unfamiliar with how a wiki works, and need it explained to you. P~
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| ::::[[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 01:22, 9 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ::::: Yes but we have to be realistic. We can't add pages at this point and expect that someone else is going to finish them. That isn't going to work. When I started with BoyWiki a year and a half ago, the majority of the pages hadn't been updated in 6 years. As you can see many of the pages still need links fixed etc... For now, the expectation has to be that: if it's going to get done, you need to not only start it but see it through. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 01:43, 9 April 2014 (CEST)
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| :::::: Maybe 80% (or more) of the "editor's guide" that I have been working on is ''now already complete''. As it is, it is very useful for anyone who now becomes an editor. I am working to complete it - there are odds-and-ends that need to be added. I have been doing that. It will not take too much work to finish it. There are some "advanced" things that I have been discovering that do not belong in my "editor's guide" but which ''should'' be available to be linked to from the guide. And at some point, all the help pages should be fixed and made "correct" in terms of BW software, and be written so even Joe Pedo who joins as an editor can understand (most) of the information.
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| ::::::I told you before - the software update has "fixed" some problems that I had with the information in the guide. I still am learning about tables (but I think I've got enough of an understanding now) and I need to go back to my "guide" and fix a few things.
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| ::::::I hear you saying, "Let's go slow. Baby steps." Then I hear you saying, "What have you done so far? Hurry up! Work harder! Do more!"
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| ::::::I'll tell you what I have done. I have spent a couple of hundred hours of the past month learning about wikis, and creating our version of a "help" guide. It is now mostly finished.
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| ::::::But THAT is not enough to make you happy... I ''really'' don't understand... [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 02:00, 9 April 2014 (CEST)
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|
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| :::BTW - Have you ever read an encyclopedia? I mean, an entire, 22-volume, world-class set of encyclopedia? Cover to cover? Every word of every article on every page?
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|
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| :::I have. (OK, I cheated - I skipped reading most of the Index [but I did ''begin'' to read it] which was the final volume. It seemed somewhat redundant to read it after finishing all the ''other'' content.)
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| ::::It was very interesting. You should try it sometime. You might learn a few things. Lucky for you that I don't have an eidetic memory. Then you would find me ''really'' "irritating". [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 16:07, 9 April 2014 (CEST)
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|
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| ==For Dummies==
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|
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| If you live in a jurisdiction where downloading materials ''"for personal, non-profit use"'' is permitted by law, you may be interested in this very-recently-uploaded title:
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| Wikis for Dummies by Dan Woods & Peter Thoeny.pdf
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|
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| ... which is available for download here:
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| https://anonfiles.com/file/e33b924b1773bb2a5fb532e30d0861e7
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|
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| It's the 2007 edition, so not the latest.
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|
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| But when I saw the title, I thought of you.
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| I mean, the "wiki" in the title reminded me of you.
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| Yeah, ''that's'' what I meant.
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| The "wiki" in the title.
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| Right.
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| It was the "wiki" in the title.
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 14:17, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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|
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| You "blanked" a number of pages which contained important discussions about BW and its operations.
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| As I'm sure you realize that the importance of the discussions, I expect that you would have moved the material to some ''other'' page.
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| But I cannot find where you moved it to.
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 14:32, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
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| I removed the contents that was not relevant or useful information to the content of the article. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 16:06, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
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| ---
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|
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| <s>You SHOULD have either left it there, or moved it elsewhere! Or is criticism something you cannot or will not listen to?</s> Don't you think it would have been better to save that material somewhere else? It certainly was important, I believe. The comments contained suggestions on improving BW. You ''do'' want to improve BW, don't you?
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| BTW - I am pretty sure that I know why, for the most part, BW has been a failure for the past several years. And my comments touched on some of those reasons.
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| I suggest you "study up" on wikis. That is why I went to all the trouble of getting that book for you. You know, I spent '''''over three hours doing so'''''. '''Just for ''you''.'''
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| Sometimes I think you don't know a good thing when you see it, even when it falls from the sky at your feet.
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 16:24, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
| | == Welcome back == |
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| : Suggestions and questions regarding BoyWiki and it's operation may be submitted to Info@boywiki.org for review by the BoyWiki counsel. Questions about editing may be added to the agora. Relevant discussion of article content may be added to the talk page. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 16:30, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
| | I was glad to read your message on BoyChat and to see you're back. Then I thought: is there any hope left that the French BoyWiki will survive? :-/ |
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| ---
| | Bron disappeared, I don't know when, why nor where. So did the French tech Pinocchio, which is a great loss. Some rare contributors obstinately continued creating pages on the French wiki between 2015 and 2019. But now I think they are disheartened because of the recent and sudden software change, that ruined all the formatting we had made on a lot of pages (thanks to Pinocchio's coding extensions). |
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| ::: "Suggestions and questions regarding BoyWiki and it's operation may be submitted to Info@boywiki.org for review by the BoyWiki counsel. Questions about editing may be added to the agora. Relevant discussion of article content may be added to the talk page."
| | Now it seems that the Council's page doesn't work anymore -- or am I wrong? |
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| My, oh my. You have been in charge of BW for how long now? Why is the above ''not'' included in a concise, clear, obvious location on any of the help/information pages (at least, not as far as I know)? <s>Incompetent much?</s> You just "forgot"?
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| And, if the "BoyWiki counsel" consists of just two people (is that correct?) - you and Bron - then ''what difference would submitting it to "the counsel"'' make? Huh?
| | If you can be of some help, I'd like to write more to you through a secure mailbox. |
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 16:47, 10 April 2014 (CEST) | | [[User:Caprineus|Caprineus]] ([[User talk:Caprineus|talk]]) 21:28, 13 June 2021 (UTC) |
| | :I categorized all the daily pages of the French Agora, from December 7, 2008 to July 9, 2014 (most of them were difficult to find before this categorization): [https://www.boywiki.org/fr/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Agora Agora] |
| | :Now everybody can see the really tough job that had been made by many contributors of the French BoyWiki, especially by the tech Pinocchio. It is not acceptable that such a job is destroyed after every update or server change, as exposed here: [https://www.boywiki.org/fr/BoyWiki:Agora/28_septembre_2020 Modifications intempestives] (written more than eight months ago – nobody even bothered to answer). |
| | :But do French-speaking writings matter?... :-/ |
| | :[[User:Caprineus|Caprineus]] ([[User talk:Caprineus|talk]]) 13:55, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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| BoyWiki counsel consists of the Curators of all three language wikis and Bron who is the keeper.--[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 16:52, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
| | :"But do French-speaking writings matter?" Well, I suppose that depends on who you ask. I would hope they matter to other French-speaking people and writers. I still don't have e-mail yet. Yeah, the upgrades do mess things up a bit but there is no way around that. |
| | :[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] |
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| --- | | ::Thank you for answering. |
| | ::The true problem is: when Wikipedia runs an update of MediaWiki, all features already installed are kept and perform correctly; but when BoyWiki is updated, almost all features created by a tech are suppressed. Why? |
| | ::This is not "messing things up a bit", but destroying things a lot. :-( As I said before, when contributors see this, they are disheartened. |
| | ::I hope you can contact somebody who steps in on this wrong update process. As for me, I know nobody, and can do nothing: my only competence is to write about cultural boy-love topics. If "there is no way around" to keep my job in a good state and appearance, well... I will finally recognize that I was wrong to spend so much time and energy for it. :-((( |
| | ::[[User:Caprineus|Caprineus]] ([[User talk:Caprineus|talk]]) 22:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC) |
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| <blockquote>You should ''now'' remove '''''all the comments which you have made above''''' because they are '''''not relevant to the "Dummies" topic section.''''' I will archive a copy so I may refer to the irrelevant, out-of-place comments - which ''you yourself'' have made, and which violate the very same rules which ''you yourself'' have so kindly pointed out to me.
| | :[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] |
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| So, go ahead - blank away!
| | == Messages from Eskimo == |
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| P~
| | Hello [[User:Etenne|Etenne]] |
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| (Now, think. Think. ''THINK!'' Why have I made this last comment, huh? '''''THINK!'''''
| | I will be posting under this header any message I have for your consideration, I will delete old messages to make it more readable. |
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| [[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 17:05, 10 April 2014 (CEST)</blockquote> | | --[[User:Eskimo|Eskimo]] ([[User talk:Eskimo|talk]]) 12:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC) |
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| ==Cards on the table==
| | :: yes you were absolutely right, that worked. Now, any guesses on getting Extension:TimedMediaHandler to work? |
| @User4
| | [[Etenne]] [[File:BLSmileyface.png|40 px|link=Etenne]] 20:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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| You were allowed to register with BoyWiki even though you have been banned from other FS resources because I wished to give you the opportunity to become a productive member of this community. I have also cut you an inordinate amount of slack because I understand that you are just learning wiki. However, the continuous hostility you have shown me in the last few days has necessitated that I take a more formal approach with you. If you become a disruption to BoyWiki, I will be forced to terminate your relationship with us. I hope that does not occur and that you decide to work with us and not against us. I continue to believe that you have a great deal to offer BoyWiki if you would focus your efforts toward working within the existing structure. --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 18:20, 10 April 2014 (CEST)
| | Hello [[User:Etenne|Etenne]] |
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| == Civil disobedience ==
| | Regarding getting Extension:TimedMediaHandler to work, can you post an example page or description of what the problem is? I can spend sometime on the Internet trying to track it down and report back if I find anything replicated. |
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| I seem to recall, there was some guy who wanted to make a point about how the definitions of what is child pornography are vague and keep getting expanded, so he went to his local police station, turned in some item of possible evidence, and said something to the effect of "Here's some stuff I have that might count as child pornography." He might have been a politician; I can't remember. Does this sound familiar at all; do you remember who it was? Anyway, I wanted to write an article on [[civil disobedience]], and that type of situation is the main example relevant to boylove that I know of. It could also be considered a [[test case]]. Sorry I don't remember more details; if I did, I'd probably be able to find a news article about it. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:46, 12 May 2014 (CEST)
| | --[[User:Eskimo|Eskimo]] ([[User talk:Eskimo|talk]]) 13:35, 10 August 2022 (UTC) |
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| :Yes and No. It sounds familiar to me too but I don't know why. It may have been simply an example someone was using in something I read but did not do it in reality. You might want to make a post to [[BoyChat]] asking if anyone remembers or have heard of this. Sorry that I could not be of more help. I like the idea of an entry on civil disobedience... sex offenders refusing to register or pay unjust fees etc.... --[[User:Etenne|Etenne]] ([[User talk:Etenne|talk]]) 20:20, 12 May 2014 (CEST)
| | == Categories == |
| ::I think that it would be helpful if groups of sex offenders were to protest/refuse en masse, rather than as isolated individuals. A mass protest will be more likely to be interpreted by the media and the public as a political act, rather than as simply yet another person's getting caught breaking the law. However, it could be hard to organize since often it's a supervised release violation for sex offenders to associate with one another without permission (see [http://www.ussc.gov/guidelines-manual/2013/2013-5d13 condition 9], USSG §5D1.3). Sex offenders are also sometimes more than willing to snitch on one another; see e.g. [http://nathania.org/w/images/4/49/Chris_Zoukis_document_19.pdf this document]. I could see one of them informing his probation officer, "These guys were talking about having a protest" and getting them arrested prematurely. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 00:49, 13 May 2014 (CEST)
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| == Quora ==
| | Hi Etenne, I am happy that you are happy with my work! I know that I can put pages into categories! |
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| I thought you might find [http://www.quora.com/Why-does-Wikipedia-but-not-Quora-have-a-rule-against-expressing-the-view-that-inappropriate-relationships-are-not-harmful-to-children this post] interesting. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 00:35, 4 June 2014 (CEST)
| | Gimli2001 |
20:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
