Talk:Etenne: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 21:18, 18 February 2015

MediaWiki, scope, etc.

Hey Etenne,

Thanks for setting up the account. I notice BoyWiki uses a fairly old version of MediaWiki, 1.13. There's a new version coming out, 1.23, that's pretty good: "With 1.23, MediaWiki starts to behave more like a modern website as regards notifications, to keep the editors of your wiki engaged and always up to date about what interests them. This used to require several custom settings." I can help you guys with configuration if you want the help, as I've owned and operated numerous wikis, contributed core patches, and developed extensions. If you would like any custom extensions developed, please let me know.

Also, I was wondering how broad the scope of the wiki can be. As the Newgon article nature of the problem points out, "Youth rights and participation must be an integral part of our eventual activism (without a broader movement to fall back on, we are doomed)". How far into the topic of youth rights in general can we venture without being off-topic for this wiki?

Public Activism (Options for Closeted BoyLovers) notes, "But if you want to legalize child sex, it's inevitable that you will have to argue youth rights. All ageist laws are based on an understanding that youth are incapable, untermenschen in wait to become full human. For instance, advocates against ADHD drugs have to make the argument that children have self-ownership. The argument logically ends by also having self-ownership for sex."

Not only does it make it easier to argue for sexual freedom when other youth rights have been granted, but it also makes relationships with young friends more convenient when they have more rights. For example, if young people are allowed to drive around, then it's easier to get together with them; if they are allowed to hold jobs, then it can make money less of a problem in the relationship; and so on.

Also, what about girls? Is there growing recognition that the girllover and boylover communities should work together? Or is the topic of girllove best reserved for Newgon, ChildWiki, etc.? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get hold of the people in charge of Newgon to request an account; if you are able to help me with that, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Leucosticte 23:44, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

@Leucosticte

Yes, we are going to upgrade any day now. During that time, BoyWiki will be offline for about 4 days.

As to the topic of Girllove.... I agree that is not appropriate for BoyWiki as we are more specialized. However, I think we can make some exceptions where our mutual concerns overlap.

I don't know anyone from Newgon or I would have been happy to help.

--Etenne 00:07, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

If you want to be able to import the latest templates from Wikipedia, then Scribunto will also be useful. Leucosticte 15:12, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

I will look into it. Right now, I am focused on getting the current bugs worked out and making sure it is secure. I did a test user block this morning which worked fine (our tech person seems to know what he is doing:) I was worried that some of the "tinkering" that was done may have messed it up but no, I can still ban the bad guys:)

--Etenne 15:35, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

On Mises Wiki, we upgraded a year or two ago to an apparently broken version of MediaWiki that didn't allow blocks or page protections. For several months, those features were out of order but no major harm was caused because apparently nobody cared enough about the wiki to vandalize it, or they didn't realize it was vulnerable. As for the spammers, they tended not to use the same account or IP more than once anyway. BoyWiki of course will always be a potential target of haters, at least until a more enlightened or laid back future arrives. Leucosticte 15:54, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Etenne's rant for the day

I have had quite a morning already.... I woke up to no power and no heat! I need more coffee!

Like I said, the new wiki is coming:) But you have to understand that everything here is done by volunteers and people get things done at their own pace... sometimes right away and sometimes a week or two latter. Therefore, progress is slow. We are mostly done...just some things need to be tweaked. The last mile does seem to be the longest:(

--Etenne 16:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

We've been out of coffee over here for more than a week, so that I've had to resort to decaf tea just for the sake of having some warm beverage. But yeah, waking up without power or heat pretty much takes the cake, as far as unpleasant inconveniences go.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to rush you or anything. I actually think this wiki is pretty good, tech-wise; site performance is pretty good and you've got a pretty lightweight (i.e. non-bloated) configuration set up, it looks like. I also think it has some advantages, administration-wise, compared to, say, Conservapedia or RationalWiki. At least BoyWiki doesn't lock people out at night and ban them for questionable reasons. It also has advantages over Wikipedia, as you pointed out in your BoyChat post. It's really a breath of fresh air to be able to participate in a wiki that's friendly to child/youth sexual liberation and has more users than just me.

With reference to BoyWiki being "the voice of a single person", I admire that you had the passion and tenacity to stay the course when it was, perhaps, kinda lonely here. I have been in that situation many times. The first time it happened was on Libertapedia, in April 2009. All the other active users (about three people) got disgruntled and left, so that it was just me running the place. Perhaps I gave up on that project too easily, and let the wiki go to ruin when I could have found a way to put it on autopilot instead. It seems that if you stay the course long enough, other users will often eventually show up.

A friend of mine who runs a wiki hosting company writes, "In a wiki environment building and working with a community is probably the hardest part. I have worked on several wiki projects and building as well as working with the community was the most challenging part. It is frustrating if the community does not build up and on the other hand it is very frustrating to deal with the community since it tends to develop a life of its own. It is really hard work to have a healthy community. If you don't have this morale is likely to sink the more time passes." Leucosticte 16:29, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Thanks for the compliments.

To be frank, I have never had a problem with my own morale because I have always held the position that so long as BoyWiki is a little better every day (whether it had users or not) I was fine with that. BoyWiki doesn't have to be a better wiki than anyone else.... It simply has to be better then it was yesterday:)

---

@Etenne:

It is easy to make a small, temporary alcohol stove for making "emergency" coffee. A empty tuna-fish can , with two table-knives across the top of it (careful - use old knives as they may discolor from the heat OR use tin foil scrunched into thin cylinders) and then with a little alcohol (takes experience to know how much - maybe 4 or 5 tablespoons of alcohol) poured into the can, and then a very small pan (one that holds less than two or three cups of water - but only put half a cup or so of water into the pan) then set on top of the knives (or foil cylinders), then the whole thing placed in the bathroom sink (for safety if the thing spills burning alcohol), then set the alcohol in the tuna can on fire, cover the pan, let the water heat (does not have to boil) then use the water to make coffee either by putting coffee grounds into the water, leaving for several minutes, and then straining through a strainer (you can even just let the coffee grounds settle for a few minutes if you do not have a strainer, then pour into a cup), or by putting so-called "instant coffee powder" (yech! that is not "coffee"!) in it and then - voila! - hot coffee!

I have done the above many times. :- )

Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

For example, the following URL:

en.test.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... needs a redirect to:

en.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... because Google has cached many articles from the "test" URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads.

Also, there are some "advisories" which should be included in the "Search" page, to help users search better.

@Leucosticte

AND

@ Etenne

I think part of the problem for BoyWiki is to make user contributions easier by breaking requests for content into "little chunks" which users can provide easily, for example by responding to posts on BoyChat.

If a question were posed on BoyChat, for example:

BoyChat post: "Anybody know who did blah-blah-blah/when blah-blah-blah happened." "Yeah, it was so-and-so/it happened at such-and-such time." "Can I add that to BoyWiki?" "Sure." "Oh, if you have any more info, you are welcome to edit the article on blah-blah-blah which mentions blah-blah-blah." "OK - I will do that...

Then give that poster a "nick" to edit BoyWiki.

This could slyly "rope in" an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor.

What do you think?

User4 18:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- re test wiki

That should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think).

Yes, a redirect would have been a good idea but somethings are beyond my control. You have to understand that the bureaucracy to get anything done around here is extremely difficult to navigate. Like I said, when the new wiki come online.... I will see what I can do. That unfortunately is the best answer I can give. There is no fixing what we have got.... We are simply happy with what we are given:)

--Etenne 19:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

@Anyone

I need a mediawik link for the sandbox thing. I can't find an extension with exactly that name. Can you give a link to mediawiki.org?

--Etenne 21:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

"(The Google cache problem) should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think). "

Uh, no. I am almost certain that it will not "clear in time". Even years from now. Really. I have a brown-belt in "Google-fu" so I think I should know.

OK - that was 1 of my 4 points.

1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

(User4 sits impatiently, while tapping his fingers on his desk, waiting...)

https://git.wikimedia.org/

OR MAYBE

https://wikimedia.org/

User4 21:18, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- 1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

yes but the power is back on now and I am far to lazy to do that when there is a store across the street.

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

You could always email Bron but I doubt his response would be any different then mine. Fix what you are able to fix yourself and the rest we may just have to learn to live with. I don't have a better answer. I have enough trouble getting anyone to do what HAS to be done.... geting people too do what should be done is next to impossible.

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

I have tried that to some extent with not much success.

I am still not finding how to set up this sandbox thing... is it done with an extension or a series of templates?

"where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?" Ideally, IssueTracker or Bugzilla; in its absence, I guess Project:Bug reports? Then, as Etenne notes, you can bring the whole page to Bron's (or whoever's) attention, and they can either do the stuff or ignore it. But at least you wrote it down somewhere before you forgot about it. Also, if you post it on-wiki, we might be able to collaborate to figure out what exactly to ask tech support to do (e.g. what config settings we need changed).

"Google has cached many articles from the 'test' URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads." The solution is to use robots.txt to keep Google from caching anything from the test wiki.

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

The only two sandbox extensions I know about are these two. Neither is needed in order to create and use a sandbox page. Is there some extra functionality you're looking for that we don't have now? I may have completely misunderstood what was being asked...

The coffee idea sounds complicated, but addictions can drive people to considerable lengths. Leucosticte 22:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

Do not know if this is useful:

Google:

sandbox site:mediawiki.org

Here is the URL to click on:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=sandbox+site%3Amediawiki.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1

From the results, maybe this:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Wikipedia/sandbox

User4 22:14, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

RE:

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

How about just inviting people on BC to submit info on various topics in their posts, with the understanding that the info will be included in BoyWiki?

User4 22:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

What to do about Newgon Wiki

I propose that we do one of two things.

add a new interwiki prefix, I guess newgonwiki:, for Newgon Wiki. Then when we link to it, we can use either that prefix or a template, e.g. Template:NewgonWiki. If Newgon Wiki ever gets taken down, we can just change that interwiki prefix to lead to either the Internet Archive URL or the successor wiki. Otherwise, all those links will break in such a scenario. --or--
import everything Newgon Wiki has that we think is useful. They won't be changing any of it anymore, so if it's going to be improved, it's up to people like us.

Leucosticte 22:21, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

OIC, it is disabled. I was told that their host was having problems contacting the owner of that site.

--Etenne 22:40, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

@Leucosticte Can you explain to me how to set up a sandbox?.... I have never used it and I don't really know anything about it.

--Etenne 22:23, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Isn't it just a page like Project:Sandbox, or User:Etenne/Sandbox, where people play around with wikitext without creating a bunch of pages that will have to be deleted? Is there something more that you're trying to do? Leucosticte 22:31, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

@Leucosticte

Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant.

No?

User4 22:39, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

Here is something on allowing/disallowing HTML tags on wikis.

https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FHTMLTags/3c2c104f877d1216dbd8a47dcce18cf4efe83954/README

You may already know all about that, but still it may be good to just scan it.

Oh, is breaking your talk page into sections such a good idea? This comment is not relevant to this section heading. Should I create a new one?

And from the watchlist, how would one know what has been added - and to which section - without all the hassle of looking up the history?

User4 00:24, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

"Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant." So what do you want to do? Mass import? I created a little guide to doing that. It should only need to be done one time, since no further updates will be made to Newgon. Leucosticte 01:07, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

---

"Seems to me that almost everything...

Importing wholesale is a question for Etenne. But then all the internal links become a problem, don't they? If the page linked to does not exist on BoyWiki then users may be frustrated to discover the empty pages, no?

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

If you import wholesale, then the linked pages will exist because you're importing everything, including the pages they linked to. Unless of course the linked pages didn't exist on Newgon Wiki either, or they linked to namespaces that we wouldn't be importing. Leucosticte 01:56, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Deletion of this page

Are you planning to delete this page periodically? I think it would be better to archive it. That way people can see the history of what was already asked and answered, etc. Leucosticte 01:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

RE: Deletion of the page.

I agree. All pages should be archived. Often I need to look something up that I have mentioned somewhere, and I may remember where I mentioned it and then go back - but if the information has "disappeared" I become very frustrated. :- (

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Unless the page is deleted, all you need to do is look at the page history to find something that has been removed. Even if a page is deleted, all you need to do is ask me and I can restore it.

--Etenne 01:52, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Oh, can you restore the one from earlier? Thanks. Leucosticte 01:54, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

you mean what blanked today of the conversation between me and User4 about making pizza?--Etenne 02:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

No, this was a deletion of 28 February. I don't know if there was anything important in there, since I can't read it; I just thought it would be good as a general principle to save it for posterity, unless it's something bad that has to be suppressed. Leucosticte 03:12, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

"save it for posterity"

I doubt anyone anywhere really wants to know anything I say.... most of the time things on this page are just chitchat. --Etenne (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2014 (CET)

HTTPS error

1) Previously, I installed all the certs for BoyWiki from the FS page (as you instructed).

Since the "software update" I get an error when I first log on (I think only then) about certs not being authorized.

On other pages (like this edit now) I am using HTTPS without any problem, and without an "error".

I am "the paranoid type" and am always very suspicious of changes to my browser behavior that I don't expect, especially as it relates to boy-sensitive sites.

Also, I would like to know what the "keep me logged in" selection on the log-in page does. Is it a cookie? I notice now that I am automatically logged out very quickly (I have not chosen to "keep me logged in". Previously, it seemed the auto log-out took place after maybe 6 or 8 hours. Now it is much much shorter.

2) Please advise me of any new templates which have been installed which affect editing. I need to know what to include/not include in the Editing Guide.

3) Thanks for your complete response to my mail message.

4)If "R" is one of the tech guys, I know exactly what you mean... Almost impossible to work with him... :- (

5) Oh, and welcome back! ;- )

User4 (talk) 10:35, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

---

1. The old self signed certs are no longer needed. We have a new valid cert for all of Boywiki

2. no new templates have been added but some things that did not work before should now work.

--Etenne (talk) 12:03, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

---

Question: Do old bookmarks need to be changed? Seems the URL is slightly different now...

Ah - but exactly WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? Uh, to try EVERY possible combination of every option to discover those things would be a bit time consuming, don't you agree? P~

User4 (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

Yeah, the URL scheme was changed from en.boywiki.org/wiki/$1 to www.boywiki.org/en/$1 . There are allegedly some advantages to the former scheme, but whatever. Leucosticte (talk) 13:40, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

---

@Leucosticte: Thanks. I'll check that out.

Aside: You know, if I were responsible for a web site, and I changed the URL, I would be certain to inform the users of the site of that fact. But maybe I'm just crazy, right? Apparently, the ones who are responsible for BW do not feel the same way. Strange, no? snark snark snark...

@Etenne:

Is "User4" a category? Can I create pages which are listed in the "User4" category? If not, why not?

And wouldn't it be a good idea if it were possible?

I tried with the "Filip" page but it did not work.

User4 (talk) 13:54, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

---

The answer to all the questions (for right now is)

1. I am so tired I can't see straight

2. I am still working on other things right now and am feeling overwhelmed.

3. I can't do everything:)

--Etenne (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

I hope you are feeling better. When you get the chance, maybe you could address some of the questions above? Thanks. User4 (talk) 11:27, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

To answer some of the questions:

1.Do old bookmarks need to be changed? yes, they do.

2. WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? That is a very complicated question but in a nutshell, this is a newer version of wiki... in the old version some of the newer templates would not work etc... I am not sure myself of all the differences but if you really want to know you will have to do a web search about what are the differences between wiki versions as well as between the monobook skin and the Vector skin.

You added Category:User4 but no, you didn't go to that page to hit save to create it as a new category. As for the rest, I am not sure what you are asking?

--Etenne (talk) 12:28, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

It might be possible to set up a rewrite rule in .htaccess to redirect links from the old scheme to the new scheme. Leucosticte (talk) 18:22, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

Right now, what I am working on is getting the Agora reset up and the vector css working as it should:) Along with all the other work that I have to do..... you how it feels when you move in to a new house? Well, there you go... that is what it is like. I have so many boxes to unpack that I don't know where to start:)

--Etenne (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

The navigation pane

... does not have a link to the encyclopedia. Is there a (good) reason for this? Just wondering...

User4 (talk) 12:37, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

Making sense of BoyWiki

"Common sense" is something that is "intuitive". BoyWiki should "be intuitive" (make sense) to users. At this point, it really doesn't. This discourages readers as well as contributors.

I am trying to find a way - within the limitations of the wiki format - to make things "make sense" to the readers and the contributors. Most people don't have the time/inclination/skills to comb through BW to find the good materials it contains. That is one reason why BW is criticized so fiercely by some.

BW just "doesn't make sense" to the average person. Wiki software was designed by computer programmers, and NOT by educators. This is also often a serious problem in the field of education - the ones creating the computer programs which make the information accessible don't think like "normal folk" and so they often design software which is basically unusable to regular people.

I am (along with working on a large number of other, unrelated-to-BW things) working on this problem here.

I will find a way to make BW user-friendly! But I may stumble along the way.

My bad...

User4 (talk) 13:18, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

The main way people find wiki content is through Google or from links from other websites, social media, etc. Unfortunately, most people are probably not going to link from their websites or social media to BoyWiki, which in turn probably hurts our pagerank. But we can still create some useful portals (perhaps the entry point can be listed on the sidebar and/or the main page) and such to make the content more accessible to people who find their way here and start browsing.

Categorization, wikilinks, etc. too are very important in helping people find useful content, so it's good to do the usual work of looking for orphan articles and dead-end pages and creating links to/from them where appropriate; looking for uncategorized pages and adding them to categories; etc. Actually it looks like I'm the main one who's been adding uncategorized pages lately, but I'm not really all that familiar with the categorization scheme here yet. Leucosticte (talk) 18:21, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

For example, people see, "Information about blah blah blah is here [click the link].
So they click, only to be given another set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from. They click on one (somewhat randomly), and then are given YET ANOTHER set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from! At this point they say, "Fuck you, your wiki, and the ass you rode in on!" and leave.
People want to click a link to something, and find what they are looking for on the page which loads next. NOT another "menu" of links to click. Do you know what I mean?

Welcome to "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
  We give useful information about the alphabet.
     (Click here to continue)
  *CLICK*
     (Which alphabet of the following?)
  *CLICKS ENGLISH*
     (Which letter? Choose from the following:)
  *CLICKS LETTER "A"*
     - The letter "A" is the first letter of the alphabet. It looks like inverted ox-horns.
         Thank you for visiting "What is "Letter A" on "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
          (Click here to return to the home page.)

SCREAMS, TEARS AT HAIR, AND TURNS OFF COMPUTER*

It's nice to have things organized in "directories" and "sub-directories", but if all the information can fit onto one page, and then scrolling down will locate it, THAT is the most efficient way to present the information. IMHO.
When you click a link, you should find useful information. NOT another series of menus, if at all avoidable (and it often IS avoidable).
No muss, no fuss. Just the information "at your fingertips". NOT information "readily accessible" after "only 5- or ten-more-clicks". Only to find that it was not the info you were actually looking for! User4 (talk) 19:12, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

Agora - working or not?

Either Agora is not working correctly, or Agora is not working correctly.

I don't know which.

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Special:PrefixIndex/BoyWiki:Agora

... shows that I made a post today. That post does NOT show up when I access Agora "normally". Or am I doing something wrong?

You see that I tried twice - that explains the "double entry".

User4 (talk) 18:51, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

Importing Help pages and other pages

Couldn't this be done some other way than me spending hours to import them one-page-at-a-time? There must be a better use of my time, don't you think?

The truth is, there are lots of things I should be doing now. Here, as well as and on other sites. I'd like to use my time effectively.

My bad...

User4 (talk) 22:55, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

No... and it's not just the importing them (which is the easy part)... it's also the editing them to fit our specific needs (which is the hard part). One page at a time..... it helps to keep in mind that, Rome was not built in a day.... that's what keeps me sort of sane. Wiki is build by adding just a little more each day --Etenne (talk) 23:15, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

While I agree with you, I still know that folks come to BW and if they are disappointed, they are reluctant to come back. This means readers as well as editors.

If you invite folks here now, and they aren't happy, then you have "blown your wad" and that is that.

And STILL if you imported them all, and put them somewhere, that WOULD SAVE ME A LOT OF TIME COPYING THEM ONE-BY-ONE and the end result would be the same - they would be here to be worked on. Or am I missing something?

While I agree with you, I still know that folks come to BW and if they are disappointed, they are reluctant to come back. This means readers as well as editors.

If you invite folks here now, and they aren't happy, then you have "blown your wad" and that is that.

And STILL if you imported them all, and put them somewhere, that WOULD SAVE ME A LOT OF TIME COPYING THEM ONE-BY-ONE and the end result would be the same - they would be here to be worked on. Or am I missing something?

We are now working on the meta stuff. This is the stuff necessary before the wiki can even be built one-page-at-a-time! Don't you see that? A really useful editing guide will help to keep editors here, editing. Without that, editors become frustrated and leave!

User4 (talk) 23:50, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

If I understand what you are asking when you say importing, I don't know how to do that or from where. When you say that "they would be here to be worked on" By who? --Etenne (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2014 (CEST)

...it's not just the importing them (which is the easy part)

I don't know how to do that or from where.

Uh, then that is NOT so easy, after all. That's OK.

"they would be here to be worked on"

First, the data. Then the processing.

By who?

A wiki is a collaborative project, consisting of volunteers who maintain and improve the content of the wiki. They may come from all walks of life, rich or poor, happy or sad, intelligent or unintelligent, enthusiastic or unenthusiastic. They apply for "editing rights" which, once granted, allow them to participate as creators and maintainers of content. Some may be more active than others, but each can make a contribution. BW currently has a few editors, and one or more of them could participate in the "processing" of the data and therefore convert the "data" into useful information. In future, there may be others who will apply to be editors, be granted editing privileges, and continue to improve the current articles on BW or create new articles.

THAT'S who will utilize the imported help pages.

I'm a bit surprised that you seem unfamiliar with how a wiki works, and need it explained to you. P~

User4 (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2014 (CEST)

Yes but we have to be realistic. We can't add pages at this point and expect that someone else is going to finish them. That isn't going to work. When I started with BoyWiki a year and a half ago, the majority of the pages hadn't been updated in 6 years. As you can see many of the pages still need links fixed etc... For now, the expectation has to be that: if it's going to get done, you need to not only start it but see it through. --Etenne (talk) 01:43, 9 April 2014 (CEST)

Maybe 80% (or more) of the "editor's guide" that I have been working on is now already complete. As it is, it is very useful for anyone who now becomes an editor. I am working to complete it - there are odds-and-ends that need to be added. I have been doing that. It will not take too much work to finish it. There are some "advanced" things that I have been discovering that do not belong in my "editor's guide" but which should be available to be linked to from the guide. And at some point, all the help pages should be fixed and made "correct" in terms of BW software, and be written so even Joe Pedo who joins as an editor can understand (most) of the information.

I told you before - the software update has "fixed" some problems that I had with the information in the guide. I still am learning about tables (but I think I've got enough of an understanding now) and I need to go back to my "guide" and fix a few things.

I hear you saying, "Let's go slow. Baby steps." Then I hear you saying, "What have you done so far? Hurry up! Work harder! Do more!"

I'll tell you what I have done. I have spent a couple of hundred hours of the past month learning about wikis, and creating our version of a "help" guide. It is now mostly finished.

But THAT is not enough to make you happy... I really don't understand... User4 (talk) 02:00, 9 April 2014 (CEST)

BTW - Have you ever read an encyclopedia? I mean, an entire, 22-volume, world-class set of encyclopedia? Cover to cover? Every word of every article on every page?

I have. (OK, I cheated - I skipped reading most of the Index [but I did begin to read it] which was the final volume. It seemed somewhat redundant to read it after finishing all the other content.)

It was very interesting. You should try it sometime. You might learn a few things. Lucky for you that I don't have an eidetic memory. Then you would find me really "irritating". User4 (talk) 16:07, 9 April 2014 (CEST)

For Dummies

If you live in a jurisdiction where downloading materials "for personal, non-profit use" is permitted by law, you may be interested in this very-recently-uploaded title:

Wikis for Dummies by Dan Woods & Peter Thoeny.pdf

... which is available for download here:

https://anonfiles.com/file/e33b924b1773bb2a5fb532e30d0861e7

It's the 2007 edition, so not the latest.

But when I saw the title, I thought of you.

I mean, the "wiki" in the title reminded me of you.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

The "wiki" in the title.

Right.

It was the "wiki" in the title.

User4 (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

---

You "blanked" a number of pages which contained important discussions about BW and its operations.

As I'm sure you realize that the importance of the discussions, I expect that you would have moved the material to some other page.

But I cannot find where you moved it to.

User4 (talk) 14:32, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

I removed the contents that was not relevant or useful information to the content of the article. --Etenne (talk) 16:06, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

---

~~You SHOULD have either left it there, or moved it elsewhere! Or is criticism something you cannot or will not listen to?~~ Don't you think it would have been better to save that material somewhere else? It certainly was important, I believe. The comments contained suggestions on improving BW. You do want to improve BW, don't you?

BTW - I am pretty sure that I know why, for the most part, BW has been a failure for the past several years. And my comments touched on some of those reasons.

I suggest you "study up" on wikis. That is why I went to all the trouble of getting that book for you. You know, I spent over three hours doing so. Just for you.

Sometimes I think you don't know a good thing when you see it, even when it falls from the sky at your feet.

User4 (talk) 16:24, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

Suggestions and questions regarding BoyWiki and it's operation may be submitted to Info@boywiki.org for review by the BoyWiki counsel. Questions about editing may be added to the agora. Relevant discussion of article content may be added to the talk page. --Etenne (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

---

"Suggestions and questions regarding BoyWiki and it's operation may be submitted to Info@boywiki.org for review by the BoyWiki counsel. Questions about editing may be added to the agora. Relevant discussion of article content may be added to the talk page."

My, oh my. You have been in charge of BW for how long now? Why is the above not included in a concise, clear, obvious location on any of the help/information pages (at least, not as far as I know)? ~~Incompetent much?~~ You just "forgot"?

And, if the "BoyWiki counsel" consists of just two people (is that correct?) - you and Bron - then what difference would submitting it to "the counsel" make? Huh?

User4 (talk) 16:47, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

BoyWiki counsel consists of the Curators of all three language wikis and Bron who is the keeper.--Etenne (talk) 16:52, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

---

You should now remove all the comments which you have made above because they are not relevant to the "Dummies" topic section. I will archive a copy so I may refer to the irrelevant, out-of-place comments - which you yourself have made, and which violate the very same rules which you yourself have so kindly pointed out to me.
So, go ahead - blank away!
P~
(Now, think. Think. THINK! Why have I made this last comment, huh? THINK!

User4 (talk) 17:05, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

Cards on the table

@User4

You were allowed to register with BoyWiki even though you have been banned from other FS resources because I wished to give you the opportunity to become a productive member of this community. I have also cut you an inordinate amount of slack because I understand that you are just learning wiki. However, the continuous hostility you have shown me in the last few days has necessitated that I take a more formal approach with you. If you become a disruption to BoyWiki, I will be forced to terminate your relationship with us. I hope that does not occur and that you decide to work with us and not against us. I continue to believe that you have a great deal to offer BoyWiki if you would focus your efforts toward working within the existing structure. --Etenne (talk) 18:20, 10 April 2014 (CEST)

Civil disobedience

I seem to recall, there was some guy who wanted to make a point about how the definitions of what is child pornography are vague and keep getting expanded, so he went to his local police station, turned in some item of possible evidence, and said something to the effect of "Here's some stuff I have that might count as child pornography." He might have been a politician; I can't remember. Does this sound familiar at all; do you remember who it was? Anyway, I wanted to write an article on civil disobedience, and that type of situation is the main example relevant to boylove that I know of. It could also be considered a test case. Sorry I don't remember more details; if I did, I'd probably be able to find a news article about it. Leucosticte (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2014 (CEST)

Yes and No. It sounds familiar to me too but I don't know why. It may have been simply an example someone was using in something I read but did not do it in reality. You might want to make a post to BoyChat asking if anyone remembers or have heard of this. Sorry that I could not be of more help. I like the idea of an entry on civil disobedience... sex offenders refusing to register or pay unjust fees etc.... --Etenne (talk) 20:20, 12 May 2014 (CEST)

I think that it would be helpful if groups of sex offenders were to protest/refuse en masse, rather than as isolated individuals. A mass protest will be more likely to be interpreted by the media and the public as a political act, rather than as simply yet another person's getting caught breaking the law. However, it could be hard to organize since often it's a supervised release violation for sex offenders to associate with one another without permission (see condition 9, USSG §5D1.3). Sex offenders are also sometimes more than willing to snitch on one another; see e.g. this document. I could see one of them informing his probation officer, "These guys were talking about having a protest" and getting them arrested prematurely. Leucosticte (talk) 00:49, 13 May 2014 (CEST)

Quora

I thought you might find this post interesting. Leucosticte (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2014 (CEST)

IBLD

An incarcerated friend wrote to me, "It may not have been Saturday but during our summer solstice ceremony I burnt a blue candle for IBLD. Thanks for the info. To be honest I did not know about it. I have heard of BoyChat but not SafeHaven. I think I used to post on BoyChat as [name omitted]. That was years and years ago. I believe I moved away from that chat because of the wishy-washiness of the chatters. I'll be the first to admit that an intergenerational relationship is first and foremost emotional. But many of the chatters were denying the other aspects of being a BL or saying the emotional part was the only one that mattered and it was better to keep it away from any physical aspect. But that is to say that the physical aspect was not a driving force. It was like saying the only reason husbands and wives; boyfriends and girlfriends should have sex, physical intimacy was for procreation. Sorry, but for guys that physical intimacy is a big part of bonding. My celly just read an article in one of his Spanish magazines that suggests the same for dolphins and bonobos, even saying age or gender was not an issue for sex used for bonding." Leucosticte (talk) 01:58, 4 July 2014 (CEST)

Interesting story, but my first thought was, How could he get a candle in prison? Candles are considered contraband. Happy 4th of July to you and your family Leucosticte.... I hope things are going well for you.--Etenne (talk) 13:39, 4 July 2014 (CEST)

It could have been a contraband candle (I'm not sure exactly how they make those, but they put some kind of flammable chemical in a jar with a wick).(web urbanist) But he probably lit a candle that was made available to the members of the pagan religious program at the prison chapel, under the chaplain's supervision. Happy 4th to you too! Leucosticte (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2014 (CEST)

Landmark Forum

Hey Etenne. I went to a seminar called the Landmark Forum this past weekend. A couple participants went up to the microphone to talk about how they were "abused" as children. One of them was a guy who, 30 years ago, at age 9 had a sexual experience with his 11-year-old brother. The forum leader asked how he felt when that happened, and he said that it felt good. But later he began to wonder if he was gay, and he felt that he didn't fit in, in either the gay or straight communities. The forum leader asked the audience who among us has ever felt, at some time or another, that we didn't fit in anywhere. It seemed like everyone raised their hands.

Anyway, one of the main lessons that the Forum teaches is that there's a difference between what happened and the "story", or interpretation, that people make concerning those events. What happened was that certain body parts went certain places. All the labels that people attach to those events, such as "abuse", "rape", "molestation", etc. are stories. "My brother put his penis in my mouth" is an account of what happened. "My brother abused me" is a story. We are responsible for the stories we make up concerning what happened, the meanings we attach to what happened, and how we let those stories affect us 30 years later.

Someone else went up to the microphone and said that when she was a kid, she was raped for three years by the kids who lived next door. She said that at the time, she didn't realize there was anything wrong with what was happening, but after she told people about it, they told her that she was damaged goods. She said that because of the rape, a gland in her brain responsible for producing neurotransmitters was too small, and she's been struggling with depression ever since. The forum leader said it was because she believed she was damaged goods that she was depressed.

Of course they are going to stop short of saying that sex with children is okay, but it is good to see that people are trying to repair the psychological harm caused by the interpretations people have attached to these childhood sexual activities. I remember a similar event occurred in my church, when a teenage church member revealed that her older brother had "molested" her when they were both prepubescent children. Their father was devastated to hear this, but the pastor asked him, "What would you have done if you had caught him doing it? You would have whipped his butt, told him never to do it again, and that would have been the end of it. You're treating this like a family tragedy, when it isn't." Leucosticte (talk) 06:18, 29 July 2014 (CEST)

Great! Sounds like it was very interesting. Too many people define themselves based on the reinterpretation of events that at the time were innocuous.

--Etenne (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2014 (CEST)

Wikibooks

Hi Etenne, I wonder if there's any reason not to migrate BoyWiki's content over to Wikibooks? Perhaps a "Boylove" book could be created, with the content arranged hierarchically in subpages. I recently created a bunch of suicide-related subpages under wikibooks:Suicide#Methods, and the objections to the content were overruled, in contrast to how the situation was handled over at Wikiversity (see wikiversity:Talk:Suicide). I'm going to ask around and see what the reception would likely be. Thanks, Leucosticte (talk) 01:38, 25 October 2014 (CEST)

I don't have any problems whith the content being added to wikibooks however I would not want you to do all that work for something that just gets deleted.--Etenne (talk) 13:55, 25 October 2014 (CEST)

I think what I'll do instead is narrow my focus to child pornography. I'll work on the book in userspace here, and then copy and paste it over to Wikibooks when it's in decent shape. Leucosticte (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2014 (CET)

Wikis

It seems like NewgonWiki's becoming an archive created kind of a hole in wiki coverage, in that there's nothing in the wikisphere covering intergenerational relationships with adolescent girls, which is ironic since that may be the group of minors to which the largest number of adults feel a romantic or sexual attraction.. I suppose that in retrospect, I should've called ChildWiki "YouthWiki" or something, so that it would cover adolescents as well as children. "Boy" is a term that covers pretty much any male from 0-17 (and even beyond, sometimes; people speak of "college boys" and, although I'm 34, my ex called me a "white boy"). "Child" usually refers to prepubescents; adolescents would probably dislike being called "children" and people who have relationships with them would probably not regard it as "adult-child sex". There could be "adult-youth" sex, I guess. Leucosticte (talk) 21:24, 7 November 2014 (CET)

I suppose you could always add other Wikis to Childwiki in the same way you would add a different language wiki and sort of have a Childlove hub:) Or are you thinking about renaming it to something more encompassing? BTW, your server runs kind of slow. Also can it be accessed using https?--Etenne (talk) 21:46, 7 November 2014 (CET)

Yeah, I use DreamHost, and even though I have a VPS, object caching isn't available. I don't have https; I guess I'd need to buy an IP address for that. I could probably get a better hosting solution from some other company; I just use DreamHost to avoid censorship.

I could name it something more encompassing but the problem with "YouthWiki" is that people might assume that excludes prepubescents, since the youth rights movement typically has only focused on adolescents. Leucosticte (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2014 (CET)

I don't have any ideas for names off the top of my head right now but perhaps you could make a post to GirlChat and they could come up with something. (as well as perhaps attract some users:) --Etenne (talk) 14:15, 8 November 2014 (CET)

I notice that efforts to create and sustain a reasonably large, active GirlWiki failed miserably. The BLs are putting the GLs to shame, as usual. :) 1,000+ articles is pretty good for a non-WMF wiki. Leucosticte (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2014 (CET)

Thanks for the compliments but I feel we can do better:) Plus many of those pages are related to the calender template and chronology. However, I am not dissatisfied with the progress we have been making. I would guess that the difference comes from Boylove having a longer history than girllove in that up until quite recently, girllove was perhaps considered a normal variant of heterosexuality whereas pederasty has almost always been considered as exotic.--Etenne (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2014 (CET)

Server

Hey Etenne, I gotta find a new server, I think. I currently have a DreamHost VPS, and not only is it slow, but it doesn't even load sometimes because it runs out of memory. (Memory costs 5 cents/month per megabyte; right now I'm paying $15/month for 300MB.) Problem is, I got kicked off of HostMonster because someone filed a report of "adult content" (because of text, not pictures). Know any good free speech webhosts? I tried NearlyFreeSpeech.NET, but there a number of technical problems associated with that host (including the fact that PHP has to be run in safe mode). Thanks, Leucosticte (talk) 01:28, 12 November 2014 (CET)

I will look into it. Email me @ etenne@boywiki.org

I increased the amount of memory a bit, so it's working somewhat better now. Still crashes pretty much daily, but then restarts. Leucosticte (talk) 21:20, 21 November 2014 (CET)

WikiIndex

WikiIndex deleted the articles on BoyWiki, ChildWiki, Newgon Wiki, and ChildPorn.info, among other wikis. See http://wikiindex.org/WikiIndex_talk:Community_portal#We_need_to_have_a_community_discussion_about_Nathania.2FNathan_Larson.2FUser:Leucosticte . It seems to me that most wikis that don't have a strong, benevolent dictator end up going down the path WikiIndex is going. They start out being tolerant and inclusive, and then a new cadre of sysops comes into power, after the old guard has left, and sweeps away the users and content that are considered undesirable. One of the sysops there, Hoof Hearted, who had for a long time been the most active user on the wiki, had defended me and my content in the past, but I think his health has been suffering or he's otherwise been less active than before. He hasn't edited in months.

Anyway, it's sad to see them abandoning neutrality on these controversial topics, especially due to pressure from RationalWiki. Leucosticte (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2014 (CET)

Not surprising. Even if they wanted to be more open, it's easy to give in to the pressure since they really don't have a horse in this race. It is easy to turn your head and not see what is right before your eyes.... at least until General Patton comes along and makes you take a walk through the death camps and bury the bodies :) --Etenne (talk) 23:40, 22 November 2014 (CET)

So, those who don't have a horse in the race don't care, and therefore give in to whatever side makes the most fuss or threatens to make them look bad; and those who do have a horse in the race are considered disqualified from voicing their opinion because they're a bunch of dirty pedophiles with a conflict of interest in the matter. On the other hand, if those who make their living prosecuting child porn offenses, providing government- and defendant-funded treatment to the "victims", and so on, voice their opinions, it's assumed that their motives are pure. Nice. Leucosticte (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2014 (CET)

Someone recently wrote, "Sites that discuss the normalization of child porn and pedophilia are fine in a neutral context, but they tilt heavily in the interest of illegal acts when they start arguing for it, and since I don't believe it is ethically or legally sensible to provide links to sites that argue for the incitement of criminal acts minus any caveats about exercising legal restraint, and having seen BoyWiki and Newgon Wiki, they are only concerned with help pedophiles hide themselves from the law, which is why I would oppose them without question." Leucosticte (talk) 18:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Someone should inform this guy that simply existing and being a pedophile is not against any law. Of course, I would like to challenge this person as to exactly which entry/entries it is talking about since I do not see anything on BoyWiki beyond basic internet security which is a good idea for everyone. I suppose that as long as no one fact-checks his lies that he is good. --Etenne (talk) 12:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Quora

I got this message on Quora today:

“

Hello

You are being blocked for one month because your questions, in aggregate, are creating a hostile pattern of content that many users are reporting as harassing and hostile to certain groups of people.

These are the type of questions which are considered problematic:
- Does the illegal possession and distribution of child pornography encourage people to abuse children so they can create porn for others' use?
- If you're an adult, is it illegal to, via the Internet, ask a minor you met online to meet you somewhere, if you don't make any suggestions or proposals of a sexual nature?

Quora is very committed to ensuring it is a safe and welcoming place for all good contributors and we require that users are judicious when asking questions that could be perceived as sexist, racist or harmful to minors.

Quora Admin

”

I was a bit disappointed, since Quora seemed like one of the few mainstream online communities in which it was still safe to ask edgy questions. It seems like feminists don't really want a debate; they want to shut down the opposing side of the debate. We have places like BoyWiki we can go to, but then people de-list those sites from indexes like WikiIndex to make it harder to find.

I don't see admins of sites like Quora being "very committed to ensuring it is a safe and welcoming place" for dissidents. I wonder why people don't see it as dangerous in any way to suppress minority viewpoints. They focus on the dangers of allowing those views to be heard. Leucosticte (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you think that continuing to have a page about them on BoyWiki is desirable given the circumstances? --Etenne (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

As criticism, maybe. Kinda like how Evil-Unveiled had pages about BoyWiki and its users, for purposes of criticism. Leucosticte (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Book

Someone writes, "I just finished a book about a young teen growing up in South Africa. He goes to a boarding school where he gets in a relationship with one of the teachers. A key is found that the teacher gave the boy. At first the boy lies to protect the teacher but when the story falls apart the boy ends up telling the truth -- not everything, but enough. The boy continues to defend the teacher, even saying it was his fault the relationship got started. The interrogator then switches and even gets angry that the boy does not see himself as the victim. In the end the boy gives in and repeats that he was abused. It struck me that once the boy relented and became the 'victim' he gave his empowerment away not to the teacher but the interrogator. The teacher actually empowered the boy by letting him choose how the relationship progressed but the interrogator took that empowerment away and used the empowerment for himself to take control of the boy and the teacher."

It kinda reminds me of the new ad campaign that's been on TV asking for donations to teach young people that they should tell on any adult who engages in sexual touching with them. This training is said to produce strong, empowered youth. Leucosticte (talk) 00:30, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Leucosticte's e-mail

If you have it, I'd like to get in touch with him. Please don't put it here - I don't think it should be made public without his permission - you could e-mail it to me, if you have it, OK? Thanks. user4

@@ Line 729: / Line 729: @@
 It kinda reminds me of the new ad campaign that's been on TV asking for donations to teach young people that they should tell on any adult who engages in sexual touching with them. This training is said to produce strong, empowered youth. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 00:30, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
+==Leucosticte's e-mail==
+If you have it, I'd like to get in touch with him. Please don't put it here - I don't think it should be made public without his permission - you could e-mail it to me, if you have it, OK? Thanks.
+[[user4]]

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Revision as of 21:18, 18 February 2015

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For Dummies

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