User talk:Lysander/Archive 1

Hi. I'm User4

I took a look at your wiki. It looks good.

A question: Though it is good to have as many varied resources available about CL in order to "get the message out" I was wondering if there is the danger of unnecessary (and even confusing) redundancy. For example, several wikis each copying each other's material seems a bit strange to me.

What do you think?

Also, I noticed some spelling and grammatical errors on several of your wiki pages. Tor users are banned from becoming editors. Is that really such a good idea? Perhaps you need to consider supplying an e-mail contact on your wiki for signing up as an editor?

User4 03:38, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

I disabled the TorBlock extension; try it now. We had a problem with GNAA, or 4chan, or whoever, vandalizing the wiki pretty severely, in ways that took hours to clean up, so I locked it down for awhile. If vandals know what they're doing, and are determined to make a nuisance of themselves, they can wreak a lot more havoc than the run-of-the-mill spammer. But I guess we have to allow Tor access, given the nature of the site. I have it set up to require an annoying Asirra CAPTCHA on each edit, but I'll promote trusted users (e.g. you) to editor or sysop so that they don't have to deal with it.

I agree that it's bad to have all these different overlapping wikis that copy one another's content. The only solution I can think of is to have one site with a broad enough scope to encompass everything, and allows anyone who wants to edit, to edit as long as they're not disruptive. Newgon Wiki seemed promising but it's a read-only archive now. BoyWiki wasn't accepting new scribes for awhile. So, that was why I created ChildWiki.

ChildWiki is also about child liberation in general, rather than just child sexual liberation. Most people in the movement seems to acknowledge that freeing children to make their own decisions regarding non-sexual activities goes hand-in-hand with freeing them to make sexual decisions as well. One form of liberation furthers the others.

There also needs to be a wiki that covers girllove. Newgon Wiki fit that criteria, and so does ChildWiki, but BoyWiki doesn't. Lastly, the wiki needs to be supported by an organization, rather than just one person; otherwise, if that person gets hit by a bus, the wiki dies. Thus far, we don't have any wiki that meets all of these criteria. To put it as a table:

Wiki	Editable?	Covers both boylove and girllove?	Covers child liberation topics besides child sexual liberation?	Supported by an organization (rather than just one person)?
BoyWiki	Yes	No	Somewhat	Yes
Newgon Wiki	No	Yes	Somewhat	Yes
ChildWiki	Yes	Yes	Yes	No

Leucosticte 03:54, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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Thanks for all the info. I am checking out the Wikimedia user manuals. I am creating one for BoyWiki, as I'm sure you have noticed.

Re: becoming an editor on your wiki

Unfortunately, javascript can be used to discover a user's real IP address and defeat the anonymity provided by Tor. Therefore, a savvy user visiting any site which is even remotely pro-CL will never enable javascript in the Tor Browser Bundle (TBB) version of Firefox browser.

I like to think of myself as a "savvy" user, though I could be wrong about that. :- )

Oh - and stay out of the way of buses, OK? The CL cause needs all the help it can get!

User4 05:14, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Are you saying Javascript is involved in the Asirra CAPTCHA? I briefly used QuestyCaptcha, but it's only effective against spammers and non-savvy vandals, not GNAA-grade vandals. I could do what Etenne does, and require that people shoot me an email so that I can create an account for them. I was hoping to avoid that, but I'm not sure there's any other way.

I started a discussion of some possible other countervandalism development, e.g. an extension to make it easier to revert changes. I even began work on it, but then got lazy and went with the easier solution. But maybe that won't be good enough. Leucosticte 05:23, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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Download the TBB here: https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

I don't know the current defaults in the latest TBB version for the included add-on which disables javascript (some versions have defaulted to "disable all javascript" and others to "javascript NOT disabled") and test your site.

It appears that your captcha uses javascript. That is the error message that I received.

User4 05:46, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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2 + 2 = 4

User4 06:36, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

It's not requiring you to pass a captcha now, though, right? Leucosticte 13:34, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

ChildPorn.info

Can you send me the logo for that wiki and I will add it to it's page.--Etenne (talk) 17:21, 6 November 2014 (CET)

It's at http://childporn.info/w/skins/common/images/childporn.png Leucosticte (talk) 20:43, 6 November 2014 (CET)

If you start a page on cartoon porn (Japanese-style manga images and anime cartoons) etc... I would be interested in have that on BoyWiki as well... I just don't know enough about it to write it myself --Etenne (talk) 21:34, 6 November 2014 (CET)

I'm not an expert on it, and I don't think a lot of cases involving it have come before the courts. But I'm sure I'll run into some articles about it in the course of my other research, and then I'll add content pertaining to that subject. Leucosticte (talk) 21:46, 6 November 2014 (CET)

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Hi! Remember when you said that changes can happen suddenly? Well, the next day, I turned on my computer and ... nothing. Hoo, boy. Well, I have things sorted out, at least temporarily. But, you know, changes can happen suddenly... Anyway, I've forgotten most of the wiki code I had learned, so I cannot format this correctly. Sorry. Anyway, yes - I would like to have the dump of your site - maybe you could upload it to anonfiles.com (with a password?) and I can get it there. So - I hope all is well with you, and with your GF - give her my regards! I'll check back in a day or three or five or whatever... to catch your response. C'ya! User4

Did you know that my wife left me, and I have a new GF now? The split was not amicable at all, and she went back on quite a lot of her promises. Anyway, I can give you the database but it's kinda useless unless you are ready to import it into a MediaWiki installation. The link is https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByRJqeihfvXndFVFZVZDb284dzg/view?usp=sharing Leucosticte (talk) 04:13, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about your troubles. We BLs don't have "wimmen" problems like you guys do. 'Course, the problems we have are probably worse!

Uh, promises are problematical... especially wimmen's promises. Be careful she doesn't set you up! She knows a little too much about you... Careful, guy...

I'm sure you saw my comment elsewhere re: the database, so I won't repeat it here. User4 (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

No, I didn't see that, if there was a new comment. Leucosticte (talk) 14:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I had mentioned that I cannot access Google docs without javascript enabled, which is a security risk. Is the file you uploaded in a format that can be loaded into Okawix? If so, then I might seriously look for a way to download it.

The reason I had wanted to e-mail you is now moot, with ChildWiki off-line. I was going to suggest a way to minimize a potentially very serious security problem (one which should not be mentioned here). You would be amazed at how things can unexpectedly be used to created serious legal problems - even years in the future. You know what they say, prevention is better than cure. User4 (talk) 13:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Please put ChildWiki up again somewhere

I find it frustrating working at BW, due to the problem of working with others who have a too-narrow understanding of complicated topics, and who are not familiar with facts in a wide area of subjects.

If you do put up CW again somewhere, please do not put it up under the Free Spirits banner. The Free Spirit organization is a committee which numbers among its members a large number of very ignorant people (at least, that is what I have noted). The problem of ignorance is what has led BoyLovers to be in the dire circumstances they find themselves in today. Education is the key - but BW does not seem to be the place for conducting a campaign to educate ChildLovers (or anyone else, for that matter).

You have seen the poor quality, inaccurate, and highly biased nature of many of the articles BW contains. Few of the past editors were competent, educated or well-informed people (and who among them is now? [sorry, a rhetorical question...]). Since the main-stream media does not give us a voice, we need a place to work which is unfettered by those with so little understanding about the world. CW could be that place. Please put it up again! User4 (talk) 04:15, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I can put it back up but I don't like to do solo projects, and my interests in the CL field have mostly narrowed to dealing with child porn policies, which seem to what are getting most of the sex offenders locked up these days. Also, the CP laws pose the greatest threat to free speech, I think. If you're going to be a consistently active editor and help fend off vandals, then I can bring ChildWiki back. But if you're not going to be able to consistently work on it, then the project will stagnate and decay, and I'll end up taking it down again rather than keeping around an archive that mostly duplicates BoyWiki and Newgon Wiki. If I take it down, I'll do the same thing I did this time, which was mothball it in case there's a possibility of bringing it back up, or in case anyone needs a copy of the content. Leucosticte (talk) 08:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Hmm... the problem with "child porn" is that you can't look at it. Once something is classified as "child porn" then no-one may view it to confirm that it is really porn porn, and not "porn" porn. Kinda like the thing about real rape vs "rape" rape.

That is the trick the authorities use -- when someone is on trial, no-one may see the then-labeled "porn" to contest the authorities. And with the idiotic SCOTUS decision about "lewd and lascivious" displays including clothed "children"... what to do? Well, there are things that can be done, of course. It boils down, again, to education.

1) RE: A commitment to the upkeep of CW.

I am more of an academic than a software programmer, which limits my ability to contribute. When you speak of "helping to fend off vandals," this sounds like "back-end" work, which I am (probably) currently incapable of doing (and lack the time to learn how to do).

Where is the problem with requiring editors/contributors to register by e-mail first before editing will be allowed?

2) RE: Bot edits.

BW uses a question, "How many letters does BW have?" for edits which include URLs -- why couldn't this same policy be implemented, for example, on all edits, but only for saving the edit, not for previewing it? Sure, it would be a drag for the editors, but wouldn't that eliminate 100% of the bots?

3) RE: Continuing contributions on my part.

I am dependent on a spurious Internet connection, without which I cannot connect. Should it disappear again, I would "vanish" as I did before. So promises are problematic... Of course, my last "disappearance" did allow me to complete a large number of other things I am doing, which was a boon, in a way... :-) User4 (talk) 11:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

BTW - I have a large collection of materials relating to "the problem of child porn". Here's one, which gives a general overview and history of the "problem," though it is not current:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel_Linz/publication/225922098_Child_Pornography/links/0912f50b791bec2485000000.pdf

And another:

http://www.apa.org/divisions/div46/articles/linz.pdf

They may be of some use to you, I really don't know... User4 (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that "no one" can view child porn. The police, prosecutors, judges, jurors, etc. assigned to a CP case are allowed to view it. There's no law against viewing it, just against possessing it, and the government is allowed to possess CP and other forms of contraband as evidence. There was also an article I saw awhile back that said that legislators could also probably display CP as part of, say, a presentation to a legislative committee during a debate on CP laws, and not be arrested for it. Leucosticte (talk) 13:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there's a strong enough CAPTCHA for MediaWiki right now to keep out the more determined vandals. Most wikis encounter problems with spambots; with this sort of site, vandals willing to put time into manually vandalizing become an issue. Yeah, if you might be vanishing again, then motivation to bring the site back and keep it up will probably be lacking... BoyWiki, for all its imperfections (most notably, its limited scope), has an organization behind it, which is a distinct advantage. Leucosticte (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

There must be something that I don't understand yet. If an "editor" must register to make changes, and if the BW kind of "test question" is implemented, then how can there be spam by bots or vandalization? I really don't understand.

Vandals can register and answer the test question. Leucosticte (talk) 13:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

OT - here's an interesting paper (the Google cached version) on "The Emerging Criminal War on Sex Offenders", which draws parallels between the war on drugs and gov. persecution of sex offenders.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3OF97vH2gFMJ:http://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/435-4821.pdf&hl=sv&gbv=1&&ct=clnk

User4 (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Templates

Leucosticte when you add a template, please try to add the Documentation sup-page or at least the url of where you found the template... that would be helpful :) --Etenne (talk) 13:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Deletion stuff

Have you already seen this? BoyWiki:Deletion policy

{{APD}}

The other side

Is there anyone taking the time to research the IPs of Boywiki participants? Am I stupid not to be using a proxy? Or is this just paranoia? Thanks. Linguist (talk) 11:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Linguist. You posted the same question elsewhere (on Etenne's talk page) and I responded there. User4 (talk) 11:28, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Name change, and the Guardian

I'm curious why you changed your user name -- was there any particular reason for doing so?

RE: Citing the Guardian

You have recently created a large number of articles based on quotes contained in one certain report in the Guardian. Do you think the Guardian is a reliable source of unbiased information? I'm not so sure that it is. User4 (talk) 11:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It's so that I can go incognito. Well, the Guardian is a step up from the Daily Mail, no? Lysander (talk) 01:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Combining relevant articles into a single article

It's great all this hard work that you have been putting into the legal situation as it stands in various countries around the world, especially as it relates to the legality of sexual activities, but since most of the articles are very short, wouldn't it perhaps be better to combine the articles into one larger article (or more, perhaps, depending on geographical considerations)? Then, when the article(s) grow larger, portions could be "split out" as needed into smaller articles. What do you think? User4 (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we're going to need articles for every country eventually anyway. Yeah, we could have an article on, say, southeast Asia and then break it out later into separate articles on each country, but then we'd have to add wikilinks and such to make it properly formatted as a standalone article. So I figured, we'd just do it this way from the get-go. I was also kinda hoping people would feel inspired to add more to these articles. Lysander (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand what your are saying, and I agree, but until the articles have more "meat" to them, I think visitors will be disappointed when they click a link and note the brevity of each article. They also will not see the articles in proper perspective to one another. Now that you have many of the individual articles started, how about doing an "umbrella" article (as you suggest above), and put links to each of the smaller articles for those seeking specific details on any one country? Does that sound like a good idea? User4 (talk) 21:11, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I just did a short article -- Cultural sexual imperialism‎ -- and it seems to me that your articles are related to that subject. What do you think? User4 (talk) 21:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Arguably, it's a deficiency in the way the wiki software is set up. It can be set up so that pages of a certain length will be bluelinked; pages under that length will have some other color; and pages that don't exist will be redlinked. So if you click on that other color, you had fair warning that it was a stub. Yeah, I think umbrella articles are good; knock yourself out. There could also be some sort of navigation template put at the bottom of the articles. Lysander (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)