User talk:User4

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Also when you have questions about editing add to your user talk page. It's better:) --Etenne 14:58, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Please see:


Lets talk here. Use the user page just for discussing article content.

Some of this will become apparent to you as you get better at this video game:)

Connor set up the BoyWiki:Agora but I have never used it since no one ever wants to talk to me:)

I don't want to talk to you, I want to fuck mess with you a little, and get this place working. ;- )

I mean, I'm a "quick study" (have you noticed?) but for others trying to edit here, I can see them giving up pretty quickly. :- (

So, what's with the index? I don't want to waste my time (like it's so valuable, you know)


I have BoyWiki set up in zones. Therefore Acolyte Press‎ is in Index > Entertainment > Literature > Publishing houses

So how come this page does not show up in:

It's in Category:Publishing houses

That come to something I was just about to tell you. When adding pages from Newgon, you need to edit the categories at the bottom of the page and add it to the correct BoyWiki category. Our categories are different than theirs. Once you have been doing this for a while, it will become second nature to you. A year and a half ago, I had never even seen a wiki before:)

--Etenne 14:52, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Uh... uh... uh...

Etenne - folks come here without knowing much about the wiki. I seriously doubt that someone is going to search through all available categories when they want fast info. They will start with the encyclopedia. If they don't find what they are looking for, they will leave. I suggest that a way should be found that entries appear in the encyclopedia as well as in whatever minor category they also may belong in.

"Common sense is an uncommon commodity." -- some famous guy, maybe M. Twain


That's what the search function is for:) Everything can't be in one category. The bigger the wiki gets the more and more specialized each category gets. Ref: go look at how Wikipedia is set up.

We are not Wikipedia, with millions of articles. With luck, we will have a few thousand (and that's with a lot of luck!) I strongly feel we need a central index - people are not always smart enough to search correctly. You saw Kristofor's response? (Thanks for advising him.) He doesn't know how to search - the posts didn't "magically become available again when they weren't a month ago" - no, they were there all along. But I did the search correctly.

As for BoyWiki, please see: ... with 360 pages. It is quite manageable - even if there were 2000 entries it still would be manageable. And clear, and easy. So could be BoyWiki, couldn't it?

"Redundancy provides for a variety of access, as well as merely being redundant." - Dept. of Redundancy Dept.


I don't have a problem if you want to add a category like that, so long as everything is organized. When the upgrade happens, we will be able to do more because we will have collapsible categories like Newgon.

--Etenne 16:03, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Yeah, if you get CategoryTree. Leucosticte 03:26, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Editing an article - easy! Adding an article - hmm, took me a minute to figure out. Adding a category - uh... I guess I could figure it out, but how about a hint? ;- )


at the bottom of an article you see [[Category:Category name]] that adds it to that category.

To make a New category you just add the [[Category: new category name]] to the bottom of a page ( then every page on BoyWiki that you want added to that category.) The new category will appear as a red link so you have to go to that page and hit save. All so add {{CH}} which adds the category header:)You add the category description in the same way as you would add text to a page.

--Etenne 16:20, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Thanks. I'm going to take a break for awhile, and do something different. Like eat. Maybe even sleep. After all, I do have to follow the doctor's orders, and do those stupid things sometimes.

So, see ya later.


Let me know which pages you no longer need (or plan to use) and I will delete them.

Etenne 11:03, 21 March 2014 (GMT)


User4 account

I created an account, User4, for you over at CW. Let me know what password you would like to use. Thanks, Leucosticte 05:27, 26 March 2014 (GMT)


@ Leucosticte

OK. No problem.

@ Etenne

I'll let you know.

Patience is a virtue.  :- )

User4 05:56, 26 March 2014 (GMT)



I've been thinking of how to set up a system for uploading images to sites like these, without requiring people to email the images to someone. Maybe an image escrow system could be set up in which the images can't be viewed until they've been approved by a sysop. It seems like I saw an extension that did that; however, I tried to find it and got lost in the matrix. Leucosticte (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

Maybe this?
Or a google search would find the information?
(Sorry - I really don't understand this stuff yet - maybe the above is irrelevant.)
User4 (talk) 10:31, 5 April 2014 (CEST)
PmWiki is a whole different wiki software. Yeah, I did a keyword search for "image" on the matrix, then went halfway through with a search for "file" and then went to bed, so there's still more poking through the matrix to do, plus I can search the extension namespace. Leucosticte (talk) 18:12, 5 April 2014 (CEST)


Hey User4, I took down ChildWiki but I still have a copy on my localhost. If there's any content you need to retrieve, let me know. Or I can do a dump of the whole database and give that to you. Thanks. Leucosticte (talk) 20:43, 13 July 2014 (CEST)

note to self

It's very easy to make some words **bold** and other words *italic*. You can even [link to Google!](

It's very easy to make some words **bold** and other words *italic* with Markdown. You can even [link to Google!](


  1. This is an


[nowiki]## This is an

tag [nowiki]###### This is an

  • This text will be italic*
_This will also be italic_
    • This text will be bold**
__This will also be bold__
  • You **can** combine them*
Lists Unordered
  • Item 1
  • Item 2
* Item 2a * Item 2b Ordered 1. Item 1 2. Item 2 3. Item 3 * Item 3a * Item 3b Images Format: ![Alt Text](url) Blockquotes > We're living the future so > the present is our past. Tables First Header | Second Header
| -------------

Content from cell 1 | Content from cell 2 Content in the first column | Content in the second column


Any word wrapped with two tildes (like ~~this~~) will appear crossed out. [/code]

The above is poorly formatted 'cause I've forgotten most markup already. I'm putting this to remind me. user4

Anti-gay quote

There's a quote somewhere, by David Thorstad or someone, saying that in this day and age, he almost feels like being anti-gay, because of how the gay rights movement is acting. It was a line in an essay or email or something. Have you ever seen it? Thanks, Leucosticte (talk) 01:58, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Uh, yes. Somewhere. And I have a copy on disk, I'm almost sure. Somewhere...

Ah, but where? Searching my saved materials for the keyword "Thorstad" will give thousand of hits. Hoo, boy...

My FireFox is maxed out at the moment (it's using half a gig of my computer memory, and my CPU is going crazy with all the other processes running... Have you tried googling:

Thorstad ashamed gay rights


Thorstad gay rights


Thorstad ashamed gay rights

... or something along that line?

I really wouldn't mind helping, but my computer is super maxed-out at the moment...

If you can wait a few days, I can work by "google search magic" when I am forced to reboot because my Windows (as it will) goes crazy, and try to find it for you.

Aw, fuck it! I did the googling myself. Now my cursor is acting all funny - lack of memory...

Anyway, maybe what you want is here:

Search the page for "gay rights"...

Hoo, boy... there goes a little more of my RAM to FireFox... Sheesh!


I can't access Google Docs. And, as you say, without a running Wiki installation, it is probably worthless. If you can, I suggest you put the wiki up somewhere temporarily, then run some website-downloader program -- Windows Website Downloader comes to mind, but there are others -- and save a copy of the wiki to disk. This makes browsing the wiki really easy. It's great!

BTW - Nice to see you back at BoyWiki! When I have the time, I'd like to make some suggestions about BW improvements...

User4 (talk) 03:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If I'd known you'd be coming back, I might have kept ChildWiki up. Leucosticte (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Hmm... That's a shame. Well, I'm back (but it is hard to say for how long - I cannot easily work using a public Internet connection, and my current connection could vanish as it did before).
Have you considered talking to the Free Spirit committee about hosting your wiki? Etenne can probably give details on that. User4 (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Does Free Spirits care about girllove at all? If not, it seems kinda pointless. Leucosticte (talk) 05:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


I created Category:Scientific literature‎ for you which is a sub-category under literature. You are free to create any sub-categories you like so long as you think you will have enough entries to populate them.

It just a question of adding {{CH}} to the page and adding the new sub-category to the main category where it belongs and hitting save. --Etenne (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I have to "digest" (figure out) what your instructions mean. I'll do that just as soon as I finish editing a half-dozen or so books for upload, some articles for an important major organization, some research deep in, fixing my junktest articles, cleaning my apartment, fixing my new bicycle, and a few hundred other things that I am in the middle of. I promise. Really. I will. OK? ;-) User4 (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I think if you go to a Category page (i.e.Category:Scientific literature) and hit edit and look at what's there, it will be pretty self-evident as to what you need to add. --Etenne (talk) 15:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, now I see how it works. Of course, will my memory serve me when I need it? I've jumped into water a bit deep here, with learning all this wiki coding, and find myself floundering at times. (No - I am not waving to you, I'm drowning!!!) User4 (talk) 05:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

List of ChildWiki pages that you edited

I can send you an XML file of these if you want. If there are some here you think would be suitable for inclusion at BoyWiki, feel free to give me that list, and I can send Etenne the XML file for import, if he's interested. Leucosticte (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how to import a file? I am not sure I have the level of access to do that.--Etenne (talk) 16:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Do you have access to Special:Import? Leucosticte (talk) 16:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes I seem to, I have never needed to use that before so I guess we can give it a try and see if it works --Etenne (talk) 16:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, usually sysops have access to it. So now the question is what you want to import. The articles above are only about 1/20th of ChildWiki's content, most of which came from BoyWiki and Newgon Wiki. Leucosticte (talk) 16:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
On Second thought, I need to run this by the Wiki council before I do anything... just to make sure they agree. --Etenne (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Imports are pretty easily reversible. You just delete whatever pages you decide you don't want. Leucosticte (talk) 18:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

List of ChildWiki pages that you edited (redux)

I can send you an XML file of these if you want. If there are some here you think would be suitable for inclusion at BoyWiki, feel free to give me that list, and I can send Etenne the XML file for import, if he's interested.

Leucosticte (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Boy -- that was a shock on viewing this page! ;-)
I'd be especially interested in the following:
The others I don't really remember... maybe the edits were not so important?
I have indicated the ones I do remember, which are probably the most important ones.
Or maybe you could just zip all the articles I edited, and upload them somewhere?
Anyway, thanks much!User4 (talk) 16:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
"upload them somewhere" Where would "somewhere" be? I put the XML file at Leucosticte (talk) 17:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Are you familiar with User4 (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
So then, try Leucosticte (talk) 18:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Got it! Great! I loaded it into OOO writer - it looks good.
But can this be loaded into some other front-end app, Okawix, or something similar, so the format is better preserved? Or perhaps it can be exported in a different format? User4 (talk) 01:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
XML is pretty much all we have. Leucosticte (talk) 05:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


See also User:Leucosticte/Cathartes-edited ChildWiki pages (Cathartes, aka Research Psychologist, aka Individualist of the Steppe, was the actual user #4 on ChildWiki). He had a rather unique perspective. Leucosticte (talk) 16:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure he had a quite unique perspective! At least, judging by his edits... User4 (talk) 17:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I think once he realized I knew he was Research Psychologist, he split. Leucosticte (talk) 17:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hmm... Maybe he used CW as a catharsis? Or perhaps he was schizophrenic? (That would explain him splitting...) He must have had a lot of gaul, or hated things gothic... User4 (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, the sky is reddening in the East, and my doctor advised me to get at least 8 hours of sleep per week, so I gotta go... Catch your reply later. Aloha ʻOe... User4 (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


Just a thought but you now likely have enough entries now that you could start a new sub-category under Encyclopedia for stuff pertaining to law and important legal cases. Also, I like adding this graphic to those pages but that is just my preference and not a mandate. Eo-scale of justice.gif --Etenne (talk) 12:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Funny, but you just "read my mind"... I lack confidence introducing new categories here... but now, regarding Law, the question is moot. ;-) I'll add some more stuff, then a category (when I have -- you guessed it -- the TIME... User4 (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Also on a side note, I know sometime I may come across as more critical when I intend to be helpful but I just want you to understand also that I appreciate very much the work you have been putting into BoyWiki lately. --Etenne (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

+1. Leucosticte (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
No probs, dude(s). Constructive criticism is (almost) always welcome. ;-)
RE: Working here
BoyWiki is one of the few places on the Internet where we can speak our piece, and I'm just taking advantage of that opportunity. I just wish that others in the past had done so more frequently, especially competent and informed BoyLovers. They seem to be a rare breed. Actually, part of the problem has been that many BLs may indeed be competent and informed, but they tend to lack "street smarts", and so they end up "doing time". The "Powers That Be" don't seem to appreciate "constructive criticism" from BLs... :-( User4 (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hmm... Was Etenne's "side note" really about the work that work that Leucosticte has put in on legal articles? The comment is under the "Law" section, but I assumed Etenne meant the articles I've been doing on Psychology. But perhaps not. (In which case, Leucosticte, you just patted yourself on the back, while I was left standing on the pier, shuffling my feet and mumbling to myself, while the boat sailed without me.) User4 (talk) 17:57, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You shouldn't feel that way at all. I appreciate the work that both you and Leucosticte do on BoyWiki... I am just bad at saying it... please consider it as always being implied:) --Etenne (talk) 18:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Kewl, dude :-) And mwaaaah! I love you too.User4 (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


You should probably become a MediaWiki developer; it seems like you have a lot of ideas, and doing the coding yourself is usually the only way to get them implemented. Scope this out. Leucosticte (talk) 20:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Great idea! But there are two problems: time, and priorities. I've got what are probably much more important things to complete at the moment -- great books being prepared for upload, etc. -- and I don't have time for everything! My bad... User4 (talk) 20:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


Where I'm going with this article is that I want to answer the question, what should a person about to be sentenced for consensual adult-child sex, or child pornography distribution, or other victimless crimes say when his opportunity for allocution arrives? Should he speak in mitigation? Should he be defiant? Should he express remorse?

I've been in that situation before, sort of. I was already on supervised release, and I was summoned to court for a revocation hearing because I had corresponded with two prisoners about philosophical and political issues concerning childlove, in violation of the requirement that I not associate with convicted felons. I admitted I was guilty, and then had an opportunity to address the court. I chose to apologize for the violation, even though I felt I'd done nothing wrong. The sentencing guidelines called for a 4-10 month sentence, the statute called for a 0-24 month sentence, and I ended up getting 10 months.

It always bothered me, though, that by apologizing, I essentially spoke against my values, by saying that I believed what I did was worthy of apology and therefore wrong. I kinda reminded me of Schrödinger's Confession to the Führer, which he too came to regret. Also, if you admit that what you did was wrong, you are essentially acknowledging the court has reason to punish you, ironically. But there are people who tell me that I caused no harm by apologizing.

Also, I passed up my opportunity to deliver remarks like those of John Brown, Susan B. Anthony, or Nelson Mandela when they were about to be sentenced. They were able to keep their dignity and make a political statement that might inspire or embolden others. But of course, no defense attorney I've ever heard of suggests that path of defiance.

While I was serving the sentence, I wrote several letters to the prosecutor expressing my political views and saying that I shouldn't have had to serve any time for what I did. My lawyer wrote to me urging me not to write such letters, saying that the court could use that information about my sentiments to justify an even harsher sentence if I were to go before the court again for resentencing after a successful appeal. I did win the appeal and got resentenced, but it was once again to 10 months. Lysander (talk) 05:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Does one stick to one's principles, no matter what the consequences? Is pragmatism better than being true to oneself? Read about Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, etc. Your answer lies there. User4 (talk) 22:35, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Child sex tourism

I was wondering, why does the U.S. care whether its citizens travel overseas to engage in child sex tourism? Don't nation-states usually concern themselves with crimes that happen within their borders? For example, the U.S. will not prosecute someone for murdering or stealing overseas; it leaves that to the local authorities to prosecute. What makes child sex tourism different?

The chair of the United Kingdom's House of Commons all-party parliamentary children's group said, "We have always foreseen that as the laws became tighter, paedophiles would go to areas in the world where there was no control on them. It's essential that we do everything we can internationally to protect these children." My question for him would be, "Why?" Lysander (talk) 05:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Money. Politicians make money by being in office. NGOs make money from government grants and donations. So the more publicity, the more politicians make money, and the more the NGOs make money. Simple. Always follow the money trail! Template:Unsigned
Why don't people ask, "Why do we care about non-U.S. children?" After all, Americans historically haven't cared about, say, Japanese or Iraqi children getting killed by U.S. bombs. So why care about foreign children who are having sex with Americans? Lysander (talk) 04:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
NO Money. The government (and large corporations) are those who support NGOs - and the NGOs know they must pander to the wishes (actually, the requirements) of the government, etc. So if the government wants a spotlight on child sex tourism, then that's where they send the MONEY. On the other hand, the government does not care about, say, Japanese or Iraqi children getting killed by U.S. bombs. Therefore, NO Money for those things. So that is why the emphasis is on foreign children who are having sex with Americans, but NOT on Japanese or Iraqi children getting killed by U.S. bombs. User4 (talk) 05:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


The stuff I have been posting today under each days events comes from a work entitled,"This Day In Pedo History". However, I have no indication of where this info came from or who wrote it. Ever heard of this before? when I get through posting to each days date, I will go through it and remove the less relevant bits and at least source the name of the work it came from... if I can't get anymore history on it. --Etenne (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering where you got that stuff from, because -- yes -- I have seen (some) of that material before, on a defunct pedo site that was only partially archived by (I spent a long time trying to get the rest of that stuff, because I thought you would be interested!).
  • Follow links on this page:
  • or
  • or
... and you will eventually find it (I am almost 100% certain of that).

Of course, along the way you're gonna find a lot of other interesting/useful stuff, too.

Happy Searching! ;-) We bad, blood... No? User4 (talk) 15:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

It funny, because that did cross my mind that they writing style might be Alexis of perhaps even not. --Etenne (talk) 16:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
It is not written by Alexis. But there is (somewhere) a link to the other site I'm talking about. When you see a graphic (it is a bit hard to describe -- it looks like one of those European "forbidden" signs, but in this case, it is a circle with a stylized image inside of a man and boy/children, with a diagonal red slash across it) then you know you have found the right site. I just gave you the starting point for finding that site. User4 (talk) 16:14, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately no. I do not have your skills at searching. I think I will ask at BoyChat. Also, if you happen to run across the month/date that Ghostwriter died, I would like to have that too. --Etenne (talk) 13:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Uh, I didn't have those skills either until I learned them... ;- )
GW passing post:

Three users

I'm glad we have three active users now; that's the point at which it starts to feel like we have a real wiki community going on. The third user makes it possible for someone else to weigh in when there's a disagreement between the other two, even if in the end all the decisions are made by the same sysop. Lysander (talk) 01:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't assume too much, too quickly. User4 (talk) 22:36, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


I was going to write a stub on Ireland, but all the articles on man-boy sexual relations there seem to be focused on the goings-on in the Catholic Church. I guess the Irish philosophy is, sex between men and boys is unacceptable and the state must step in to stop it, unless it's nonconsensual sex between members of the clergy and the youth they're supposed to be guiding and nurturing, in which case we need to patiently wait around for the Church to regulate itself. Lysander (talk) 12:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

That guy

I met this guy. He looked and acted like a cute 12-year-old redhead, which made him rather popular. (None of the photos of him that are available on the Internet are very flattering, although you can kinda see his meek body language in them.) According to his account, the fed who conspired with him got him to feel like he owed him something, and that therefore he needed to show up at the airport with all those supplies. He said that if you looked at the whole transcript of the chats, you could see that it was the fed who was leading him along, although the excerpts that appeared in the media made it sound like he was the one in charge of the conspiracy, and who was enthusiastic about it. Those transcripts aren't a public record, because he ended up pleading guilty (without any plea bargain in place, because the prosecution didn't offer a reasonable plea agreement; it was a blind plea).

This guy got 420 months. To put this in perspective, I knew another guy who was a mentor at an organization that assisted children with developmental disabilities, and he got 405 months for producing child pornography that involved his having sex with a six-year-old he was supposed to be mentoring. Both of the these guys were sentenced under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines. The organization was successfully sued for a million dollars because they ignored parents' complaints about him. Lysander (talk) 17:26, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The lawyers push for legislation (the politicians are usually lawyers, remember?), who are supported by the psych-professionals and the prison-industrial complex - all groups who benefit from the situation they have created. "Successfully sued for a million dollars" -- and the lawyer took it on contingency, so he got - what? - 25% (or more) of that million bucks. It is all about MONEY . Always follow the money trail. Have you been listening to me, or what? User4 (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The reasons it's hard to oppose tyranny

I was thinking, those who have no interest in illicit sexual activities probably think, "I have no reason to oppose laws like the International Megan's Law because it won't affect me. I'm not a convicted sex offender and probably never will be." Those who engage in illegal sexual activities, but haven't yet been caught, think to themselves, "I better not fight against this law, because that might serve to out me, as people would come to suspect my attractions." Those who have been caught and are now convicted sex offenders think "I better be very careful what I say, because it could someday be shown to a magistrate who's making a decision on civil commitment, or to a judge who's deciding how strict my probation should be and how long it should last." Their ability to take part in activism is greatly impeded.

So the situation is that there's really no group that doesn't feel its hands are tied from opposing some of these bad laws. The few people who oppose them anyway tend to get ostracized. Their ability to get their message out is greatly limited because it can't go viral; for example, on Facebook, I've shared innumerable status updates about the sex offender laws, or about child pornography legislation, and hardly anyone likes or shares them; but if I share a funny meme I might get all sorts of likes and shares. Lysander (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The U.S. government has spent billions (that is NOT a typo - the correct word is with a "b," not an "m") promoting the child-abuse narrative (among other myths). And it has paid off, for certain -- shall we say? -- "interested" parties. User4 (talk) 22:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Wedge issues

Do any wedge issues immediately come to mind, when you think of the history of the boylove, pedophilia, child liberation, etc. movements? Lysander (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

As you quoted, "The goal of the state is to find some practice that is universally reviled and pose as the one and only way of expunging it from society." It used to be the homosexuals and the communists.
But now it is us. User4 (talk) 22:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


How was it that the European Union ended up passing directives against child porn, child sex tourism, etc. despite it's being mostly made up on non-Anglophone, non-Nordic nations? Lysander (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The early gnostic Christians started with the "our bodies are dirty," thing, which led to bodily fluids being considered dirty, which led to "spilling seed" (onanism) being a sin, which led to the Christians among the Germanic tribes condemning "perverted" sexual practices.
The Anglophone countries are the most sexophobic, so they are leading the way. But the other Europeans are not far behind... User4 (talk) 22:48, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


"'Love' in pedophilia is illogical for the simple fact that kids grow up, which means the attraction from fucking a kid will dissipate as the kid grows older." Is there any rebuttal?

Sure. Just look at the studies which have been conducted on the subject. The sexual attraction may fade, true, but pedos are human, too -- and when they are in an emotionally satisfying relationship (even with a young person) that relationship tends to continue, whether the sexual attraction is there any longer or not. You need to read Rüdiger Lautman, "Die lust am kind". I'm working on fixing the translation... (among a bunch of other things, when I am not wasting my time answering questions posed by others who are too lazy to do the research for themselves). No links for you, thank you. You never seem to want to do your own homework... User4 (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Well there are also a lot of guys who are most attracted to women in their late teens and early 20s, and would prefer to marry a woman that age, but that doesn't mean they'll divorce her once she's no longer in that age range. Lysander (talk) 00:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


I was just looking through the references for the statement at wikipedia:Pedophilia#Pedophile_advocacy_groups, "The efforts of pedophile advocacy groups did not gain any public support". One of them says "In the 1970s, the pedophile movement was one of several fringe groups whose cause was to some extent espoused in the name of gay liberation." It doesn't say anything about the fact that groups like ILGA and major political parties like Alliance '90/The Greens supported pedophilia rights. That's ridiculous. It would be interesting to comb through the revision history and see who's responsible for this. In fact, one could probably write a whole essay or even thesis about the history of the Wikipedia pedophilia article (including its talk page discussions and surrounding meta-debates, including those that got people banned). Sometime when I'm bored, I guess. Lysander (talk) 07:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Hepburn reference

So I was browsing through the Virginia Child Protection Newsletter and saw a claim, "According to Hepburn & Simon, 2010, the lack of regulation of adult entertainment and pornography results in illegal use of underage and trafficked persons for pornography. Again, due to the illicit nature of the activity, the number of affected children is unclear." The newsletter claimed that references were available on the VCPN website, but I found none there.

Searching on my own, though, I did find the 2010 Stephanie Hepburn and Rita J. Simon article, "Hidden in Plain Sight: Human Trafficking in the United States" (doi 10.1007/s12147-010-9087-7), which states:

One issue is the lack of regulation within the US sex industry. While prostitution is illegal, except in the state of Nevada, the sale of pornography (aside from child pornography), and strip clubs are legal but highly unregulated. Strip clubs, which are usually zoned in certain areas, are often used as a front for prostitution.

Pornography, which is constitutionally protected under the First Amendment, is pervasive in the US with Americans spending roughly $10 billion a year on adult entertainment and Los Angeles being one of the top two porn producing cities in the world. While pornography carries a negative social stigma, it is linked with some of the biggest US corporations. In fact, companies like Time Warner, Hilton, Westin, AT&T and Marriott earn tens of millions of dollars a year in distribution. While the industry earns considerable profits for large US corporations, its lack of regulation results in the illegal use of underage and trafficked persons.

I wonder what kind of "lack of regulation" they're talking about? I thought that pursuant to laws like the Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act, the porn industry was already heavily regulated, with porn producers being required to keep on file documentation proving that all of their actors, models, etc. are 18 or over. The call for still more regulations might be an example of child pornography as a wedge issue for attacking other freedoms, perhaps?

Also, it would seem that to the extent there was any loophole making it possible for strip clubs to get away with having underage strippers, it's being closed. Lysander (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Bitching at each other

As they say in The Hunger Games, "Remember who the real enemy is." Lysander (talk) 18:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


I'm tempted to export the whole wiki, import it to my local installation of ChildWiki, and then go through my new articles and tag everything I created for deletion. Then I can just pursue my research on a wiki that only exists on my localhost, much as I used to keep my journal,, on my localhost for months after I took it offline.

It seems like I'm pretty much hated everywhere. Wikipedia thinks I'm too pro-pedo, and you think I'm too anti-pedo. It just goes to show how polarized the debate has gotten, that a diversity of views isn't tolerated.

BoyWiki is going to have to focus on boylove of the past because it can't discuss boylove of the present, since it's illegal. Okay, well, have fun with that. That makes it a history book, though, rather than something that will have obvious relevance to current events. Lysander (talk) 03:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


It seems like I make a lot of errors. This isn't the first place it's happened; see also this and this. Thus, what happened at the Thomas Frank article is not really anything new. Similar stuff happens at my workplaces; there were times, for instance, at cashier jobs when I would forget to charge a customer, or drop the money they gave me and not be able to find it, or accidentally hand them back the check they just gave me along with their receipt (and so they would walk off with a free cart of groceries). It happened in accounting too; people would say "You put this in the wrong accounting period" or "This check is made out to the wrong address" or "You forgot to do the payroll". The same thing is happening at my current job; the boss might say to turn on a particular server and I'll hit the power button on another one, or he'll say to put the service request number and then the client name on a label, and I'll get the two reversed.

It's weird, because I'm very strong at some stuff (e.g. I'm good enough at spelling that I made it into the county spelling bee), but very weak at other stuff, and the strengths usually end up being insufficient to make up for the weaknesses. I haven't found a way yet to monetize what I'm good at, which is one of the main measures of success in life. And although I've been slightly useful to various wikis, in the end I've always been either shown the door or told I was well on my way to being shown the door, so that I had to end my involvement there, since I had nothing to contribute other than more of the same kind of stuff I had been contributing. So in the end, my contributions are going to end up buried either in the revision history or in the archive table.

I might give up on RationalWiki, BoyWiki, etc. but I never give up on Wikipedia; I always go back, because its scope is so broad, and it has so many editors, that I can keep returning and editing for awhile before they become aware of my identity. Once they unmask me, then they go through and get rid of my contributions, but I usually save a copy for myself somewhere (getting it from the Google cache if I have to). That's a sign of my optimism that I'll be able, sometime in the future, to make use of the content that they rejected.

I'm actually kinda lucky my situation isn't even worse than it is. It just happens there are currently a few people, who have been more successful than me, who love me enough that they are willing to take care of me. Were it not for them, maybe I'd be living in a homeless shelter or something. Maybe that's the fate for which I'm eventually destined. Lysander (talk) 20:52, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


This is hysterical. :) Lysander (talk) 08:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The full wiki

That full wiki is a wealth of historic information but I could spend the next year recreating these entries (and maybe not even make a dent) as it doesn't give access to the source wiki code. --Etenne (talk) 12:26, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

If the articles still exist on Wikipedia, then you can go to the bottom of the TheFullWiki entry, where it says, "text of the above..." and click the link to the original Wikipedia article, can't you?
  • User4 (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
No, most of the articles have been completely removed but if you can find any... feel free to add them:)
I just saw a post on BC that shows how to find deleted articles by googling for them:
Seems if you put the title of the deleted article in the search you get some information on them.
Oh, and the "if you have time, feel free to..."
You have GOT to be KIDDING!
  • User4 (talk) 14:25, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
See if you can find the sourse code for this one (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I'll look for it. We "cross-posted" - Here is what I was trying to post but you were posting at the same time:
You make me so mad... you KNOW I can't resist temptation...
Here's a page to check out, for example:
The google search to find that was:
You put the following into the google search box (including the quotes): "Historical_pederastic_couples"
Now, leave me alone! I've got a 1924 book of BoyLove poetry to convert into a neat .PDF file...
  • User4 (talk) 14:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
OK - Now I checked for it. Try this:
Check here for a list of some other article titles vandalized on Wikipedia by the assholes:
Scroll down to "Articles to be cleaned up".
  • User4 (talk) 15:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
No, none of that gives the source code (that I can find) which mean I have to re-add in all the links and references by hand which sometimes takes me days. And CM thinks it is just a matter of cutting and pasting! I suppose I better stop before I blow a gasket and go on a rant. I have been doing this shit all morning and it isn't fuckin' easy! --Etenne (talk) 15:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's your "Greek Philosophy" article, nicely wikified:

It's a little old: "This page was last modified 22:57, 17 November 2006."

You can follow the links in the article, too, to other stuff. OK? Happy now? :~~

  • User4 (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
No because it still doesn't link to the source code/wiki code. I need a page that has an "edit" button so I can cut and paste the code. If it's just the text, then I am still stuck redoing all the references etc... But thanks for trying. --Etenne (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Here's another resource that might be useful for comparing with information that you already have:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just "straight text" and not wiki format. But you should know about it, that's all...
  • User4 (talk) 16:17, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

Please feel free to offer feedback on the materials I am importing.

As for being for a cause, mine is to explore the ethics of relationships between men and boys. For that purpose, the Greeks are an invaluable resource. Haiduc (talk) 00:46, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Cf vs. V.

I don't know what you're getting at. I know the difference very well and have corrected misuse dozens if not hundreds of times in others. Wanker (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2015 (UTC)



No idea, I am sorry. Haiduc (talk) 00:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem, thanks anyway. User4 (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please do your magic an the following pages

How could I refuse? You said, "please". I'll get to them soon.
  • User4 (talk) 14:15, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


I am worried about the use of Template:W (not in external links) but in the middle of entries. I think that is a bad practice, it makes it look like an internal link when it is not. It's like we are fooling people. Also, Wikipedia and their policies worries me. Plus, they have pretty much banned links from them to us... I kind of feel we should offer them the same courtesy :) --Etenne (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I thought about how, in the middle of text, it could be mistaken for a BoyWiki link. This is a problem, and could well deceive people.
I don't know whether Wikipedia's anti-pedo policies should be of concern when it comes to links to non-controversial articles where no "anti-pedo" bias is displayed. I would like to see some sort of "warning message" or disclaimer displayed every time a person accesses a Wikipedia articls. "You are now leaving BoyWiki, and will be redirected to Wikipedia, where all information on pedophilia and Boylove is highly biased, inaccurate, and cannot be factually depended on." Is something like this possible?
Yes and no, it is possible (most things are possible) but I don't have the programing skills necessary to do that and I don't know anyone who does. The easist solusion is simply not to make links like that, which are deceiving --Etenne (talk) 16:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Hmm... how about the "dereff" used at BC? That gives a message "You are now being redirected to..." or something to that effect. That message could be changed to a "Wikipedia warning". Ask MElf if it is easy and/or possible to implement at BW. (And I just had another thought - the user I have railed against for suggesting possibly dubious software changes involving security risks snuck one in (the W template) that gives away BW visitor's IP addresses to Wikipedia?!?! Hmm...) User4 (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
No, different kind of software. I asked about that during the upgrade last year. It wasn't possible to do. --Etenne (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
We can't recreate every Wikipedia article on BoyWiki (at least, not with the current number of editors) so referencing their materials enriches BoyWiki.
Most things don't need to be recreated. A simple dictionary entry or an external link is sufficient. We don't have to be everything to everyone as we are specialized. People who are really interested in in-depth knowledge on a subject will put in the time to do further research or follow the links.The best way to do is, Virped discussion[1] --Etenne (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
We can't just ignore them, either. But we definitely have to do everything possible to point out their biases and lack of impartiality regarding anything to do with pedophilia, pederasty, and BoyLove.
  • User4 (talk) 16:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Note to self re: French pedo article:

French Wikipedia article on Pederasty with last ref year 2007 to check

This is not a criticism, just an observation

Some of the things you add would be so much better if you worked on better documenting the source (in some cases). Using/learning <ref> </ref> {{reflist}} is a good place to start and then latter moving on (if desired) to learning to use some of the more complicated citation templates. Much of the stuff you add is really good but it would be even better if it was sourced --Etenne (talk) 12:21, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I try to do the best I can, but being very thorough takes a great deal of time. Sometimes I add content in the hopes that others will eventually "fix" it and make it more acceptable.
RE: <ref> </ref> {{reflist}}, yes, I have to learn how to do that. But sometimes I feel my time is better spent on sourcing materials and creating articles than on the simple "mechanics" - the mechanics being something which takes much less skill and can be better done by others. Of course, currently, there are almost no "others" at BW, which is a problem that the admin of BW should seriously attempt to remedy, IMHO.
I'm not certain that you realize just how many projects other than BW that I am actively engaged in, important projects which also take quite a bit of my time and effort. Some of these are very important for helping to educate BoyLovers on our history as well as on current problems.
  • User4 (talk) 12:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I can understand that.... having been sick all winter, I am so behind in the things I need to do and my available to work on BoyWiki entries is going to be decreased for some time now that I am feeling a bit better and my motivation and ability to not sit in front of my computer all day and night has returned:). Still, these things are important, in my opinion, it is better to have one really good entry then 100 sort of good entries. --Etenne (talk) 13:00, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
BW needs more people contributing. There are ways to get people to become -- and remain -- editors, but it takes a knowledge of the psychology of why people volunteer to do things. I don't have time to explain exactly how to promote BW to potential users. But first I would suggest you check the editing histories of previous users, and unblock the ones who provided good edits but that were automatically blocked during the update a year (or more?) ago. Then give periodic notices on BoyChat that those users have been unblocked and are welcome to return. There is simply too much to be done at BW by just two genuinely active users, and the load of editing articles must be shared among a larger number of editors. You could benefit from improving your management skills, specifically: Planning, organizing, motivating, and controlling.
  • User4 (talk) 13:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
As far as I know, none of those currently blocked had either not contributed anything in several or more years or had only made one edit. I am pretty sure I unblocked all the people who were active editors after the years BoyWiki was set to read only and then again when it was not accepting new users/editors between 2007 - 09ish and 2012 when I started however, I will look at the list again. --Etenne (talk) 13:39, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
With regard to the references, when you're short on time, I recommend just hastily throw something in there, even if it's a bare URL or unformatted copypasted journal citation, as long as it tells people where the information came from. It can always be prettified later by some wikignome. Lysander (talk) 13:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
The problem is, that the only person who does that type of editing here is me and I simple can't keep up on doing those as they are becoming overwhelming and at the same time new info is being added (some of it really good stuff) but it's not being sourced. I am not saying the User4 is responsible for all this... all I was saying is that some of the things he posts could be improved by better sourcing. C'est tout. --Etenne (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Etenne - which articles have I failed to provide sources for? I believe (though I could be wrong) that I always provide sources.
  • User4 (talk) 14:15, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if you wrote this yourself or just translated it but it was what got me thinking about this From Japan, "However, in 1853 it was forced to open up its borders by threats of military attack made by the US war fleet commanded by Commodore Matthew Perry which was sent by President Millard Fillmore to open Japan to trade, by whatever means possible, including acts of war.". As an historical fact, it needed a citation. this is just one small example though. When writing BoyWiki entries, it good for everyone including myself to remember documentation, documentation, documentation that every statement pretty much needs to be sourced or it's simple opinion and not fact etc... I understand that this is not always possible but it is the goal we need to shoot for.... --Etenne (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Whoo, boy... I had included an imbedded Wikipedia link on Perry, but those links were disallowed, and now the link is in the external links section. Do you see it?
  • Commodore Perry's expedition to force an "opening up" of Japan to trade with Western countries:
Please, could you check just a little more carefully before making comments/criticisms? I would appreciate it. Thanks.
  • User4 (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
That is not where anyone use to reading wiki entries would expect the citation to be. --Etenne (talk) 14:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Stop for a moment here.

I said:

I had included an imbedded Wikipedia link on Perry, but those links were disallowed, and now the link is in the external links section.

See, the policy was recently changed on using imbedded links, so I followed the new policy by not using the imbedded link but putting it in the external links, as you had suggested.

Now, what I should have done - but I still don't know how to do - is to make some kind of ref that puts a number like (1) or (2) but, as I said, I haven't learned how to do that yet.

Your response was,

That is not where anyone use to reading wiki entries would expect the citation to be. --Etenne (talk) 14:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Now, how do you think I feel receiving your response? Do you think I may feel a bit disturbed by it? Angry, perhaps?

That's were the planning, organizing, motivating, and controlling comes in. The opposite of motivating is demotivating, which I suggest you should avoid at all cost, given the dearth of editors.

Instead of working with me to solve the problem, you changed the base, and gave another criticism, but one that is actually faulty.

Do you see what I mean?

Oh, and BTW - you said you wanted to use the article as a feature if it were ready, so I spent 6 1/2 hours non-stop to clean up the translation. Another thing - do you know that I do not speak French?

  • User4 (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't see why you would be getting angry as you are the one who (in true boylover fashion) has extended a simply suggestion into a long drawn out conversation. If you would have simply said, "sure this is something I can work on in the future when I have the time to better understand how to do this"... I doubt the conversation would have gone any further then that.
I said above:
"Whoo, boy... I had included an imbedded Wikipedia link on Perry, but those links were disallowed"
You disallowed those kinds of links, then you later waffled on it. I was following your instructions exactly. Then I was criticized by you for doing so. Don't you see that?
If "That is not where anyone use to reading wiki entries would expect the citation to be." then you should not have instructed me to place them there, which is what you did.
*User4 (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding, before Lysander fixed it, Template:W made external links which looked exactly like internal links (basically it was fooling people into thinking it was an internal link). My problem wasn't so much making these kinds of links (when absolutely necessary but that it did not indicate that it was an external link)
Making a reference using <ref> </ref> tags is completely different but not so different from the HTML tags and wiki code that you already know that it should be easy for a smart guy like you to learn within 5 mins.
I looked at the ref you made for Perry, I thought about it for about a minute, and (for the near future, at least) I will remember how to do it and have no problem making those kinds of links or refs or whatever.
If I had not engaged with you on this, but, instead, acted as a "normal" person would, I would have said "Screw you, Etenne! You told me to do it that way and now you say I'm wrong to do it that way!"
How many editors in the past have you lost for this same reason? What are you doing to prevent losing editors in the future for the same reason? And where is an apologetic tone on your part for having created the problem in the first place, by giving contradictory instructions? You never "officially" stated that the problem had been resolved, so how was I to know that it had been?
You need to learn more about how to motivate people, and how to avoid demotivating people. You could even (heaven forbid!) thank me for having brought this matter to your attention! Most people would not have even done so!
  • User4 (talk) 19:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be better to make the article well-documented but messy, than cleanly formatted but undocumented. Retaining information in some format, any format, is paramount. That includes matching facts to their references. So if you have to, you could even put a bunch of inline TODOs (e.g. "(TODO: Reference this to xyz)" if you still haven't mastered Cite.

We should then add the appropriate cleanup template. People say that there aren't a lot of wikignomes around to clean up others' messes. But it would be easier if we would at least add the templates so that when we're bored insomniacs, we can browse through the cleanup categories and fix those articles that are in need of attention. I've been adding links to nonexistent templates, in hopes that Scribunto would be installed and we could just import the templates from Wikipedia, but maybe I should give up on that fantasy and just create new templates from scratch. Etenne, your thoughts on this? Thanks. Lysander (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2015 (UTC)


It is not correct that it leaves no trace on your computer. This issue is not even addressed in the software, the whole focus is on security in transmitting and receiving. If you have evidence that I'm wrong, I'd very much like to see it. Wanker (talk) 00:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Please visit the Tor site and read the documentation about Firefox. The special "Tor browser-bundle" version of Firefox does not cache anything (unless you manually enable the caching function). Yes--Tor is the onion-routing system, but separate from that is the Firefox version included in the Tor browser bundle. Of course, you can run your own browser accessing the Tor routing system, but that does not provide good security, and your browser will then cache the sites you have visited. I'm pretty sure the information I have included here is correct.
  • User4 (talk) 01:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
When I open TOR the first thing the welcome says is "Using this app does not inherently guarantee privacy". And my TOR history just opens up. Obviously it's stored on the device. No password needed, if you're into my phone. Wanker (talk) 13:57, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The Firefox version included in the Tor Browser Bundle does not (by default) cache sites visited. This version of the Firefox browser will run on many different platforms. I don't know what platform (and browser) you have installed on your phone. You could contact the Tor project and ask them how to use Tor safely on your phone. Perhaps you have to adjust the settings in whatever app you are using on your phone, or perhaps there is no way to avoid your phone caching the sites you visit. I suggest you get a another device, one that will run the Firefox version from the Tor Browser Bundle. Otherwise, you may be endangering your personal safety. "Big Brother" is, after all, really out to get us. Just a suggestion, of course. You may, naturally, do whatever you wish. If you continue to use an insecure device (and app) for Boy-Lover-related browsing, then I would like to wish you the very best of luck! Because you may need all the luck you can possibly have, considering the circumstances. User4 (talk) 14:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Maxwell G Sisterone

What do you know about these books?

--Etenne BLSmileyface.png 18:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no-one has uploaded them to any of the sites I frequent. They are not "books," actually, because they tend to be around 6-10 pages each. Most have no reviews on Amazon. From the titles/descriptions, they are from a gay who is "a traitor to the gay cause"--he admits that young boys who are gay can be interested in older men. I hope he's writing under a pseudonym... if not, he may be in for a rough time...
I'd read them, of course, if they were uploaded anonymously to, for instance, (uploading is easy there). So far, no-one has uploaded them. Until I read them I really can't have any clear opinion on them. Sorry. User4 (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Starting discussions at the Agora

Could you use the interface at BoyWiki:Agora when you start discussions there. It appears you're doing it in some other way, and the discussions don't receive the correct header with the date on it, and people seeing the Agora page are unable to respond to your posts. __meco (talk) 18:44, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmm... seems there's a bug somewhere in the software which allowed the entry that I made? Actually, I'm not quite sure just how I posted that entry to the Agora. I couldn't find the Agora page at all after quite a bit of site searching, then finally I found a reference to it, and edited the URL to make the entry that I did. But now, thanks to you, I have a good link to Agora which I will use from now on. ;-) User4 (talk) 19:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes the Agora likely outdated though I don't know of any extension to replace it. This is something that Connor set up and requires JS I believe. When you are logged in, do you see "Agora" on the sidebar under Random page? --Etenne BLSmileyface.png 19:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
No, I don't. User4 (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Editing Agora entries while javascript is disabled in one's browser

Create a link somewhere, using the following format:


...editing the dates as necessary, then click the link.


Toes and VPN

What is the Difference Between a Bench Trial and a Jury Trial?


SOURCE: Electronic Frontier Foundation
United States
Current Status: The United States currently has no mandatory data retention law. However, if providers of electronic communications or remote computing services store electronic communications or communications records, the government may obtain access to the stored data under the Stored Communications Act (SCA), enacted as part of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act in 1986. The SCA also establishes mandatory data preservation, under which providers must preserve stored data for up to 180 days on government request.

Data retention laws in the United States
Expert advice from the leaders in VPN
Currently the US does not have any blanket law compelling ISPs to retain customer data, like the EU does. But US ISPs are required to hand over any data they have on customers, including address, credit card information and logs of what websites you’ve been visiting, if they are legally obliged via a court order from US law-enforcement.
Restrictions on Government Access
Section 2703 regulates government access to stored communications or transaction records in the hands of third party service providers. There are four categories of information, each with differing access requirements:
    contents of wire or electronic communications in electronic storage;
    contents of wire or electronic communications in a remote computing service;
    subscriber records concerning electronic communication service or remote computing service; and
    basic subscriber information.
These categories require a search warrant. 18 U.S.C. § 2703(a)-(c) Records pertaining a may be obtained by a court order upon proof of “specific and articulable facts showing ... reasonable grounds to believe that ... the records or other information sought, are relevant and material to an ongoing criminal investigation.” 18 U.S.C. § 2703(d); see also In re United States for an Order Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 2703(d), 36 F. Supp. 2d 430 (D. Mass. 1999).

Certain basic subscriber information may be obtained with a "administrative subpoena authorized by a Federal or State statute or a Federal or State grand jury or trial subpoena." 18 U.S.C. § 2703(b)(1)(B)(i).

SEE ALSO:,_Title_V#National_security_authorities